Quick Outsider question

[Cthulhudrew]

Apologies in advance if this has been asked before, but I'm curious about Outsiders. It seems to me that they should be a sub-type, rather than a separate type. For instance, a human-like race from another Material plane, which advances as a character, would suddenly get the Outsider subtype when it travels to the Prime Material Plane. Similarly, a human traveling to the Astral should gain the Outsider subtype (relative to natives of the Astral) when journeying there.

Yet Outsiders are listed as their own type, with their own advancement rules, etc.

Not sure if I explained my dilemma quite clearly enough, but if anyone knows what I'm getting at, and wants to help me out, I'd appreciate it.

 

[gfunk]

Apologies in advance if this has been asked before, but I'm curious about Outsiders. It seems to me that they should be a sub-type, rather than a separate type. For instance, a human-like race from another Material plane, which advances as a character, would suddenly get the Outsider subtype when it travels to the Prime Material Plane. Similarly, a human traveling to the Astral should gain the Outsider subtype (relative to natives of the Astral) when journeying there.

Yet Outsiders are listed as their own type, with their own advancement rules, etc.

Not sure if I explained my dilemma quite clearly enough, but if anyone knows what I'm getting at, and wants to help me out, I'd appreciate it.

You are mistaking the type Outsider with the term extraplanar.

The examples that you cited -- a being originally from Plane X travelling to Plane Y is an example of a creature considered extraplanar while he is on Plane Y.

Thus, the extraplanar creature is subject to spells like Holy Word, Dismissal, Banishment, etc.

Outsider is merely a type which means a being not native to the Prime Material Plane or the Elemental Planes. However, this is not a strict definition, because it may also mean magical in nature. For instance, Monks and some Prestige Classes become Outsiders when they hit the end of their level advancement.

This may help clear things up:

Example #1
Human Wizard native to the Prime plane shifts to the Abyss

His type is Humanoid but his status is extraplanar. Therefore he may be sent back to the Prime if a Demon casts Blasphemy on him. Additionally, an abyssal being can send him back to the Prime via Dismissal or Banishment. In addition he is still subject to the spells which affect humanoids specifically (e.g. Charm Person).

Example #2
A Pit Fiend in the Nine Hells (where it is a native) is attacked by foes from the Prime who have entered its dominion

The Pit Fiend's type is Outsider but its status is native. Therefore, although it may be deafend by a Holy Word spell it would not be banished as it already is on its home plane. However, it is not subject to spells that specifically affect Humanoids (e.g. Hold Monster)

Hope that clears things up.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

>Example #1
>Human Wizard native to the Prime plane shifts to the Abyss
>
>His type is Humanoid but his status is extraplanar. Therefore he >may be sent back to the Prime if a Demon casts Blasphemy on >him. Additionally, an abyssal being can send him back to the >Prime via Dismissal or Banishment. In addition he is still subject >to the spells which affect humanoids specifically (e.g. Charm >Person).
>
>Example #2
>A Pit Fiend in the Nine Hells (where it is a native) is attacked by >foes from the Prime who have entered its dominion
>
>The Pit Fiend's type is Outsider but its status is native. >Therefore, although it may be deafend by a Holy Word spell it >would not be banished as it already is on its home plane. >However, it is not subject to spells that specifically affect >Humanoids (e.g. Hold Monster)

Okay, this is useful, and may be exactly the solution I was looking for. Maybe you can help me a little further.

Say I've got a cosmology essentially similar to the Doppel Cosmology in the MotP- two Prime Materials, somewhat different from one another, which occasionally interact. By your example, then, a humanoid from either Prime would be the Humanoid type, but would follow the rules from Example #1 above when traveling to the other Prime, but a Balor would be an Outsider type and would be extraplanar when visiting either Prime, but would follow the rules for Example #2 when on its native plane.

Essentially then, the stats for creatures from the Alternate Prime (which is where I'm ultimately heading, here) would simply list their type- humanoid, magical beast, whatever- and not use the Outsider type. Right?

(BTW- thanks for the help, I think you were able to nail my problem on the head, despite my possibly less than straightforward presentation).

 

[AuraSeer]

Essentially then, the stats for creatures from the Alternate Prime (which is where I'm ultimately heading, here) would simply list their type- humanoid, magical beast, whatever- and not use the Outsider type. Right?

Right. A human is always of type Humanoid, even he was born and raised in Celestia.

"Outsider" means a specific flavor of innately magical beastie. Most of them happen to live on planes other than the Prime, but that's just coincidental, and has no direct connection to their outsider-ness.

 

[Spatula]

Re: Re: Quick Outsider question

The Pit Fiend's type is Outsider but its status is native. Therefore, although it may be deafend by a Holy Word spell it would not be banished as it already is on its home plane. However, it is not subject to spells that specifically affect Humanoids (e.g. Hold Monster)

Hold Monster only affects humanoids?

 

[Li Shenron]

If I may tail an extra question...

I have been planning a cosmology where the 8 "intermediate" Outer Planes (Bytopia, Arcadia, Beastlands, Ysgard, Pandemonium, Carceri, Gehenna, Acheron) would actually be alternate material planes. Do you think that all their native inhabitants would need a new type other that Outsider? The planes won't be "Outer" anymore (no gods, and natives would follow normal rules on life & death), so do you think I should:

- find an appropriate new type other than outsider, and change all abilities accordingly
- find an appropriate new type other than outsider, and leave the creature as it is (except type, for spells subject)
- simply fill those planes with non-outsiders from MM

just looking for a suggestion

 

[AuraSeer]

That depends on what you want the inhabitants to be like. If they're normal mortals, like the PC races of the ordinary Material Plane, then they are humanoids. If they are innately magical and have many special abilities, then they're probably outsiders.

Again, the "Outsider" type has no direct relation to the existence of the Outer Planes. In the standard cosmology, that's where most outsiders live, but that's coincidental. You could base all the celestials in the Elemental Plane of Air, or even in your basement, and they'd still be Outsiders.

 

[Nail]

Again, the "Outsider" type has no direct relation to the existence of the Outer Planes. In the standard cosmology, that's where most outsiders live, but that's coincidental. You could base all the celestials in the Elemental Plane of Air, or even in your basement, and they'd still be Outsiders.

True enough. The designers probably used the blanket term (rather than some planar-specific divisions) to simplify and to be "not campaign specific".

Besides, by rights the elementals should be called "insiders"!

 

[gfunk]

Re: Re: Re: Quick Outsider question

Hold Monster only affects humanoids?

My bad, typo. I meant "Hold Person."