Quickened Dimension Slide and Sneak Attack?
- Thread starter kmdietri
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Patlin
Explorer
When hiding, the character is for all intents and purposes invisible. Therefore, the opponent will lose dex bonus to ac and is subject to a sneak attack.
Edit: Abilities such as blindsight, uncanny dodge, or the blind fighting feat may come into play here and change the result. For that matter, numerous opponents are immune to sneak attack, period... but you get the idea.
The majority view is that the loss of dex bonus only applies to the first attack. A minority would allow it for the entire attack sequence. I do not believe the rules conclusively adress this issue.
Edit: Abilities such as blindsight, uncanny dodge, or the blind fighting feat may come into play here and change the result. For that matter, numerous opponents are immune to sneak attack, period... but you get the idea.
The majority view is that the loss of dex bonus only applies to the first attack. A minority would allow it for the entire attack sequence. I do not believe the rules conclusively adress this issue.
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If you're already in combat rounds, and the target has acted, then he's not flat footed, and doesn't lose his Dex to AC. Just because he didn't know you were coming doesn't mean he is suprised.
"Suprised" is a specific condition in which one, or many, members in a combat is unaware of an opposition at all. When they become aware and act in initiative order, they are no longer suprised nor are they flat-footed.
So if you dimension slide in the suprise round, or in the first round before they act, then you can deliver a sneak attack. Otherwise, no.
As for hiding, remember that you must have either cover or concealment to do so. When you move next to him, it is extremely unlikely that you have cover with regards to him, and if you have concealment, he will as well most likley, and you cannot sneak attack him. As soon as you appear next to him, you will no longer be hiding (because of no cover nor concealment), and no longer elligible for the "sneak attack from hiding" mechanic.
"Suprised" is a specific condition in which one, or many, members in a combat is unaware of an opposition at all. When they become aware and act in initiative order, they are no longer suprised nor are they flat-footed.
So if you dimension slide in the suprise round, or in the first round before they act, then you can deliver a sneak attack. Otherwise, no.
As for hiding, remember that you must have either cover or concealment to do so. When you move next to him, it is extremely unlikely that you have cover with regards to him, and if you have concealment, he will as well most likley, and you cannot sneak attack him. As soon as you appear next to him, you will no longer be hiding (because of no cover nor concealment), and no longer elligible for the "sneak attack from hiding" mechanic.
Shadowdweller
Explorer
I sort of disagree with this. IMO, "surprised" refers to a state of not being prepared, even more so than being merely flat-footed. I like to encourage scouting/good tactics on the PC's part. An enemy rushing from hidden ambush with a melee attack technically becomes visible the moment she leaves cover/concealment. I'd judge it a surprise round, however.
If I were DMing in the original case, I'd allow a surprise round after a quickened Dimension slide (but only if combat has not already started). After all, it generally uses greater resources than a simple dimension slide and I think there should be some benefit from this.
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Patlin
Explorer
Yes, it's likely you lose concealment when you move in to attack. I suppose the issue becomes one of when you check whether or not the attacker can be seen. There are no rules on this, but the interpretation I prefer is at the begining of the attackers turn. You ought to be able to gain a sneak attack when attacking from cover, even if you need to take a move action to get in position. Teleporting as an instant thought ought to be even better. Another interpretation, while reasonable, merely forces the first attack to be made with a ranged weapon, which is clearly intended to be permissible given the discussion of sniping under the hide skill. This interpretation seems to me to be aesthetically displeasing.
Felix said:
What is it with members of this board trying to hose rogues
.Check out the S.A. in O.M. thread for more discussion on this topic if anyone's interested. I think a problem too many DM's suffer from is allowing the rules of the game to form a box around them, limiting them then just to what's inside. The designation of rounds is completely arbitrary! If the opponent is unaware of you, he loses his dex bonus - end of story.
Maybe this arguement can convince the rules-blinded populous: Why do you get S.A. while invisible? It's not because your invisibile. It's because the opponent can't react to you, no? He can't see how to respond to your attacks if he knows you are there in the first place. Is it not correct that this unawareness then is what is causing him to lose his dex bonus and that it doesn't matter at what point in a combat you are in for this loss of dex to apply? So it doesn't really matter that you are invisible. All that really matters is that your opponent cannot respond to you adequately. In this case because he cannot see you. What about at the start of a combat. Let's say you are not invisible but are simply starting a combat. What about that situation causes the opponent to lose their dex bonus. If you'd insist upon "flatfootedness" as the reason, I'd simply reword the question: what about flatfootedness causes the opponent to lose their dex bonus? Because the rules say so...."shakes head in dismay". They lose their dex bonus because again they cannot adequately respond to you. What is similar in the invisible case and the start of combat case: the opponent cannot respond to you appropriately. In one case you are invisible and in one case visible. Clearly, it is the lack of responsiveness that is key in losing your dex bonus. If you are hidden, the opponent is unaware of you, no? Let me be more specific, if you are hidden and your opponent was just stabbed by you but now cannot find you, he is unaware of your current location. If he passes within 5' of you (and is still unaware of you) and you decide to attack, how is this different than the start of the round other than that arbitrary designation? You are hidden, you are invisible, it is the beginning of combat, whatever, your opponent doesn't know you are there and doesn't know about the attack until your knife is entering his square (and hopefully his jugular): he loses his dex, you get S.A.
EDIT: Can I get an AMEN, brother?
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Thanee
First Post
Outside combat: Yes, since you then get a surprise round and the target is flat-footed.
Inside combat: No, since the target has acted already and is not flat-footed anymore (unless it's the very start of the combat). The moment you appear behind the target, you are immediately in full view and therefore not hidden, regardless of whether you were hidden before or not.
Bye
Thanee
Inside combat: No, since the target has acted already and is not flat-footed anymore (unless it's the very start of the combat). The moment you appear behind the target, you are immediately in full view and therefore not hidden, regardless of whether you were hidden before or not.
Bye
Thanee
Thanee
First Post
@Gaiden: If you want to compare with Invisibility... if the invisible attacker performs a full attack action, only the first attack counts as a sneak attack, because right after that, he or she is no longer invisible.
That's pretty similar to the above, as soon as - inside a combat situation - the attacker is visible, sneak attacks are no longer possible, he or she must be invisible or hiding at the time the attack is made, which is not the case after the Dimension Slide. Alas, no sneak attack possible.
Bye
Thanee
That's pretty similar to the above, as soon as - inside a combat situation - the attacker is visible, sneak attacks are no longer possible, he or she must be invisible or hiding at the time the attack is made, which is not the case after the Dimension Slide. Alas, no sneak attack possible.
Bye
Thanee
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Gaiden said:
Because your opponent is denied his Dex bonus to AC.
He's denied his Dex bonus to AC because you're invisible.
Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
Attacker is . . .
Invisible +2²
2 The defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. This bonus doesn’t apply if the target is blinded.
Exactly.
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
It's very clear.
-Hyp.
