Quicker Than The Eye feat (from Song & Silence)

[Davelozzi]

Alright, TB & Hypersmurf, you guys may be right, I may have to reconsider this. Although I'm not converting a character that already has the feat, my player just wants to take it now and I wanted to make sure that it's balanced, especially in relation to the revised rules (which we're already used). He's arguing the same point about it being a different feat, I'll have to give it some more consideration.

That's not a trouble. You just feint, and instead of sense motive + BAB opposing your feint, it's spot + BAB for someone using this feat to feint.

Yes, I had thought of that and agree with you. But the trouble that I was refering to was trying to get the player to agree, since it says nothing about it in the feat description.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Yes, I had thought of that and agree with you. But the trouble that I was refering to was trying to get the player to agree, since it says nothing about it in the feat description.

It says nothing about adding BAB in the 3E description of Feint, either

And try using the 3E version of Monkey Grip in 3.5 without changing any of the words. It actually works... but you end up with some really bizarre results.

Some feats need to have their wording updated when you use them in a 3.5 game. If he insists that the wording should stay the same, tell him to find a 3E game and have fun...

-Hyp.

 

[Davelozzi]

If he insists that the wording should stay the same, tell him to find a 3E game and have fun...

It wouldn't come to that. We're both very reasonable people, it's just the standard DM-player give 'n' take, very friendly.

 

[TracerBullet42]

It says nothing about adding BAB in the 3E description of Feint, either

And try using the 3E version of Monkey Grip in 3.5 without changing any of the words. It actually works... but you end up with some really bizarre results.

Some feats need to have their wording updated when you use them in a 3.5 game. If he insists that the wording should stay the same, tell him to find a 3E game and have fun...

-Hyp.

I agree and would think that the updated QttE would add the BAB to the spot check. I was hoping it would appear in the Complete Warrior, but I don't believe it did. Having a character in a 3.5 campaign with the QttE feat, we are using that mechanic and it has worked out just fine so far.

Now, about that bacon...(still craving some)

 

[Hypersmurf]

I agree and would think that the updated QttE would add the BAB to the spot check.

Except that denying Dex bonus against an attack is really more of a side-effect of the QttE feat.

Why should someone add their BAB to the check to notice me switching the real Orb of Ultimate Authority for the glass bauble?

The purpose of the QttE feat is to take an action without being noticed. BAB isn't really applicable to the opposed check. It just happens that if the action you take without being noticed is an attack, the opponent loses his Dex bonus.

If I were updating QttE, I'd actually rewrite it so that it can't be used to conceal an attack against a non-flatfooted opponent. Make it a utility feat, not a combat feat. It would restrict its combat use to sneak attacking flat-footed people with Uncanny Dodge, but so what? If people want to Feint as a Move Action, use the Improved Feint feat. If they want to make everyone look the other way while they throw a poisoned dart at the Duke, use QttE.

-Hyp.

 

[TracerBullet42]

Except that denying Dex bonus against an attack is really more of a side-effect of the QttE feat.

Why should someone add their BAB to the check to notice me switching the real Orb of Ultimate Authority for the glass bauble?

The purpose of the QttE feat is to take an action without being noticed. BAB isn't really applicable to the opposed check. It just happens that if the action you take without being noticed is an attack, the opponent loses his Dex bonus.

If I were updating QttE, I'd actually rewrite it so that it can't be used to conceal an attack against a non-flatfooted opponent. Make it a utility feat, not a combat feat. It would restrict its combat use to sneak attacking flat-footed people with Uncanny Dodge, but so what? If people want to Feint as a Move Action, use the Improved Feint feat. If they want to make everyone look the other way while they throw a poisoned dart at the Duke, use QttE.

-Hyp.

Very interesting. I see your point. And I think I agree, although I think it works in combat just fine. How about a Spot + BAB check in combat, but just straight up Spot outside of combat?

Using it to sneak attack flat-footed people with Uncanny Dodge...hmm. I'm not sure if I'd go that route with it, though I'd like to hear what more people think about that idea. Why would this override UD?

 

[Davelozzi]

If I were updating QttE, I'd actually rewrite it so that it can't be used to conceal an attack against a non-flatfooted opponent. Make it a utility feat, not a combat feat. It would restrict its combat use to sneak attacking flat-footed people with Uncanny Dodge, but so what? If people want to Feint as a Move Action, use the Improved Feint feat. If they want to make everyone look the other way while they throw a poisoned dart at the Duke, use QttE.

Not a bad idea, although probably not the best example since throwing a poisoned dart at someone would be an attack as far as I'm concerned. Of course, if I did opt to keep both effects in one feat I could always rule that the BAB gets added to the role when used in that fashion. (edit: TracerBullet beat me too it!)

This is a good discussion, thanks for all the feedback. I think I'll invite my cousin/player to join in and see if he has anything to add.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Why would this override UD?

Uh-oh.

This is one of those can-of-worms questions

It hinges on the interpretation of the word "even", and can last for several pages, eventually devolving into "Is not!" "Is too!".

-Hyp.

 

[TracerBullet42]

This is a good discussion, thanks for all the feedback. I think I'll invite my cousin/player to join in and see if he has anything to add.

No problem. Glad to help. Let me know what you guys come up with and we can try stuff out in our campaign as well.

Ahhh, community. It's a beautiful thing.

 

[TracerBullet42]

Uh-oh.

This is one of those can-of-worms questions

It hinges on the interpretation of the word "even", and can last for several pages, eventually devolving into "Is not!" "Is too!".

-Hyp.

True...I should know better. Let us not speak of it again.

You're a smart fella, Hyp.