Race Balance

[frankthedm]

I would say Elves need to be more attractive as Wizards.

88 years of middle age is not enough? -1 to all phys +1 all mental can be taken advantage of even with a racial con hit. Maybe I am the only one who thinks aging is worth it for arcanists. Perhaps letting the elf Age Gracefully [the first two points of CON lost to aging are treated as already paid for by the racial CON Penalty].

Or perhaps let them switch the Con hit to STR and WIS if the character want to. Pricey, but going into wizard kind of makes those two stats pale compared to CON.

 

[airwalkrr]

Hi Folks,
With all the debate over balance and such , I was wondering what people would do to 'balance' the Core races to the Dwarf level of power?

Why do you assume the dwarf needs to be the standard? Powerful race, but why not de-power the dwarf a tad to bring it on par with some of the others (which, with the exception of the half-elf, are all pretty well balanced with each other).

IMC, I use multiclassing rules that are similar to AD&D's. Dwarves can only be multiclass assassins (a base clase IMC), fighters, or rogues. Also, Charisma is the key ability for Will saves so the Charisma penalty dwarves experience is more damaging. This wasn't done intentionally to nerf dwarves though. It was merely a convenient side-effect.

 

[Will]

I've always disliked the Cha penalty for both dwarves and half-orcs. It's part of the general inconsistency of how Charisma is treated in the game.

Charisma is strength of personality and compelling nature. The putative 'dwarves and half-orcs are asocial so thus have lower Cha' has a number of nonsensical effects: they are easier to dominate, find it harder to Intimidate others, and so on.

I really think dwarves and half-orcs should, instead, have a penalty that applies specifically for 'being social' -- maybe a penalty to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive.

Then again, I have a general problem with bonus physical stats coupled with penalized mental stats. It translates to no penalty if you are pure melee, and a club over the head if you want to stretch the concept at all (like a half-orc bard).

And yeah, halflings are silly. They should have a Str penalty of something like -4 or -6, given their size...

 

[lukelightning]

One thing that is great for gnomes is their +1 DC to Illusion magic. An illusionist-type gnome with spell focus/greater spell focus has a +3 DC to illusion magic. A level 7 mage with an int of 18 can cast a phantasmal killer with a save DC of 21.

Halflings: Remove the Dex bonus and the Str penalty.

Sweet! I'm gonna make a halfing barbarian and convert my +1 bonus to hit for being small into power attack damage all the time! So my small greataxe does 1d10+2 damage, instead of 1d12 for a medium sized one.

 

[Will]

(looks at monster size tables) Yeah. Halflings should be -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con.

I'd love to hear the screaming if I did that in my game.

 

[delericho]

Sweet! I'm gonna make a halfing barbarian and convert my +1 bonus to hit for being small into power attack damage all the time! So my small greataxe does 1d10+2 damage, instead of 1d12 for a medium sized one.

Firstly, what was to stop you from doing that anyway?

Secondly... oh, no! A net bonus of +1 extra damage!

Seriously, it's not an ideal fix, and does leave open the "Halfling with 18 Strength" corner case. But it's hardly game breaking. (Also, isn't that more of an issue with the Power Attack + Two-handed Weapon combination, rather than the Halfling Strength penalty?)

 

[Dykstrav]

Half-elves and half-orcs are kinda weak in my opinion. Neither race gets anything so cool that I'd be willing to pass up an extra feat, and darkvision comes with dwarves too.

Some players seem to dig the half-orc chainfighter archetype. The half-orc getting a hit to two stats for a bonus to one seems a bit much, but then again, I've rarely seen people wanting to play half-orcs that cared much for skill points or Charisma-based skills. Maybe make it so Intimidate is always a class skill for half-orcs?

Half-elves are also weak. They're basically elves who get to swap in part of their skill bonuses and finding secret doors for a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information. They don't feel like a mix of human and elf. I'd like to take away the bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information and give them Skill Focus as a feat at first level. (Not quite as versatile as humans with the bonus +4 skill points, but it lets them be really good at at least one thing, which seems kinda humanesque to me). It's also be cool to make a feat that allow you to give a half-elf the elf's ability to find secret doors.

 

[tylermalan]

*cough*

I've actually never noticed a racial imbalance...

I mean, sure, dwarves seem to get a grab-bag of goodies, but consider, how many of their thingies are actually useful?

+2 con: Really useful. More hit points are allways better.

-2 charisma: poor charisma, it's like the redheaded stepchild dump-stat. Nobody seems to think that loosing a point in social setting is equivalent to gaining a point of HP.

Medium size; but shorter. perfect for all the "Damn, you're short" jokes.

20' movement: Slow. They suffer the low-speed penalties of the Small racers, without the added armor class and to-hit abilities.

Darkvision: Great! Except you're always traveling with people who need torches...

Stonecunning: Most Useless Bonus... EVER. Sure, it LOOKS like it would be useful, but it's only on Search checks, and on one type of surface, and only for "unusual details" which the GM can just BS. Alos, the "Intuit depth" sub-ability is about the only part that ever gets major play. Dwarf: "How deep below the surface are we?" GM: "About Five floors down." Thrilling!

Weapon Familiarity: Okay, This i'll give you. it's way more useful for the dwarf to get this proficiency than any of the other racial weapon proficiencies. I like dwarven Waraxes and Urgoshes. Sue me.

Stability: +4 save Vs. a pair of somewhat under-used tactic. DM's need to remember monsters have special attacks too!

Poison save: Nice, but again, it's dependent on what the GM has the players encounter.

+1 to-hit and +to-AC Interchangeable with the Halfling or Gnome techniques, albeit without the size bonus further adding to it.

+ appraise and + craft. Meh, don't really adjust balance much.

I think maybe you should look at how many penalties there are for being a dwarf, as opposed to being the standard race (humans), and then see if the penalties outweigh all the bonuses they get, which are many.

Bonuses:

+2 Con, darkvision, stonecunning, weapon familiarity, stability (+ to saves), poison (+ to saves), Spell saves (+ to saves), halfling/gnome techniques, bonus to appraise and craft.

Penalties (from the standard humans):

-2 Cha, 20' speed, no extra skill points, no extra feat, restricted favored class (as opposed to an open one like humans have).

At the most, -2 Cha equals the stonecunning, 20' speed equals darkvision or weapon familiarity (but not both), and no extra feat equals all the bonuses to saves, which are like taking a ton of feats anyway (remember I said "at the most") That just leaves the restricted favored class, which is equal in power to, what, the gnome techniques? At most?

Even after you cancel a few things out, Dwarves still have +2 Con, skill bonuses to Appraise and Craft, and either darkvision or weapon familiarity, and that's being very liberal with equal power levels.

Not considering what the DM throws at you because you can't measure it, Dwarves still get more than the standard.

 

[gizmo33]

You could drop most of the bonuses for races in DnD as redundant.

If dwarves are really interested in metalworking and such then they can spend their skill points on it. Everyone else, when they're interested in something, spends skill points on that thing.

I don't know how strongly the dwarf concept in DnD relies on magic resistance. They already have a Con bonus that goes towards Fortitude saves.

Give everyone human bonus skills and the bonus feat - just require that the human bonus skill points and feats be spent on "race approved" skills/feats.

 

[NilesB]

Half-Orcs:On par with Dwarves already, may even need to be toned down. (light sensitivity?)
Half-Elves:I don't even know where to start, call me when you hav a racial identity and we'll look for something to support that mechanically.
Halflings:I'm not sure they are underpowered but if they are low light vision would help their sneaky angle.
Elves:Cut the Con penalty, add a Wis penalty. Increase sense skill and enchantment save bonus by one(apply to Survival?). Add a substitution level to ranger for Cha based casting. (these changes make elves as attractive as wizards as they were intended to be and make more difficult cleric archer cheese, elves have always been lousy clerics in D&D)
Gnomes:make good rogues and great arcanists already. If they must get a bonus allowing 20' move in medium and heavy armor would open up more options for them without overpowering the options they already have.