Races and Ages - Balancing Short-lived and Long-lived

[jasper]

...? And what happens if you compare that 18 year old human with a 35 year old human who has seen almost double the years? How do you "balance" them at the game table?

...[Read: I'm a silver subscriber and can hand out globs of XP by the bucketful]

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

You don't. Because Aliens are Aliens or to put in D&D terms races are races and they don't think like we do.
Also I know some 18+ years old who I would give $1k to build me a game computer set up but would not let him buy a $2 bottle of paint for my mini's.
Where the 35 years old I would give $2K to paint my house but would not let him near my xbox.
Balance is not the holy hit die of gaming. Having fun is.

 

[steeldragons]

Assume for this discussion that the players involved prefer for there to be a measure of balance between the PCs regardless of race or age.

How do you reconcile the differences between short-lived and long-lived races in your game? By this, I mean how do you "balance" between a 300 year old elf and an 18 year old human in terms of their abilities?

For my games, this was always a combo of fluff and the rules/numbers.

As I figured it, the long-living races were simply slow maturing (as the age-category tables in the books should). The 18 y.o. human and the 120 y.o. elf were the same...mentality/maturity wise...in fact a hard-working 18 y.o. farm boy was probably significantly MORE mature than an "18 y.o."(120y.o.) elf.

What had the elf been doing all those years, you ask? How many words for "leaf" and types of trees do you think elves have? The names and types of the animals of the woods, every bough and branch that is suitable for traversing or construction. There's the decades of play and tutelage to hone their senses (to explain such things as the secret door detection and/or not getting "surprised", for example) and learn about fun and dance and...frolic...there are the years spent in games (and maybe more formal training for the more "serious" elves) in archery and sword play (to account for the racial "automatic" +1 with bows and swords in early editions of the game). Elves weren't (solely) "genetically predisposed" to being good with bows hence the bonus...it was a crunchy reflection of their fluffy long lives.

Also, at least in Basic D&D, "Elf" characters advanced in level the slowest... needing double (or almost) that of all other classes. When 1e AD&D came about, elf characters (and half-elves and often all other demi-humans I saw played, for that matter) were almost always kept in this "multiclassed" vein...needing massive amounts more XP to increase in level.

So, while the human fighter or thief is leap-frogging through levels, the elf fighter/mage is still at striving to become a 3rd level MU.

There is also the flavory bit from Basic & AD&D of racial level limits. Now, for my own games, we never used them. But I see the point of it for attempting a "balance" of races...the long-lived races have the time and opportunity to become very skilled in many different things...but they're ability to do that also means they have limits to how far that skill can go.

Whereas the short-lived (which was basically just humans, maybe halflings if you want to count them) were not so limited...in most instances. Their "souls" were limitless or somesuch...

Surely the elf is going to be much more highly skilled (even if most game systems seem to ignore this), particularly if they left their Elvish family when very young?

Well, they are. That's just cultural color/fluff. It's always been an accepted "trope" in games I've been in, that elves are just better. That does not translate into the idea of very young or very old elves trying to go a'venturing. It simply, culturally, isn't done.

They are certainly more skilled. They are also culturally more aloof. Maybe a 1,000 y.o. elf IS a sorcer supreme of the Prime plane...but it is VERY unlikely, unless the PCs get to very high levels themselves, that elf is never going to be encountered.

They are more "removed" from the rest of the world. A "very young" elf isn't leaving their family early. I had made it a general rule in my game that any elf encountered outside the elvin realms would have to be at least 150 y.o...and that was essential "early 20's" when an elf might desire to explore beyond their home-wood....they know all of the words and how to read the trees and wind, they've got their detect secret door thing down and are confident in their general skill (which is above/beyond most other races) with their bow. So...time to go see about the rest of this world.

And what happens if you compare that 18 year old human with a 35 year old human who has seen almost double the years? How do you "balance" them at the game table?

"Balancing" different ages within the same race isn't really...possible, or necessary, I don't think. That's really a matter of character back story.

Is the 18 y.o. a noble's son who's had tutors in swordplay since he was 8? Is he a farmer who married young and lifted his first weapon in combat when goblins destroyed his homestead? Is the 35 y.o. as someone mentioned, been a farm all of his life until said goblin raid? Had he been sequestered in a monastery for the past two decades and only just completed his training and "took his vows" to become an "honest-to-goodness properly-ordained spell-casting cleric."

The 18 y.o. nobles son and the 35 y.o. newly ordained priest and the 150 y.o. mu/thief are all 1st level characters. There's their balance. The 35 y.o. priest might advance faster with some Wis. bonus to their acquired XP. The 18 y.o. will advance quickly without any "aged experience" because...well, fighters advance quickly...chalk it up to "youthful exuberance"/eagerness I suppose. The elf, yes, chronologically "older" is no more "experienced adventuring in the human world" than either of the other two...and his multi-class will ensure he advances much more slowly than either human character...

Thus generating, if I'm understanding properly, the oft sought "balance" between characters.

You can follow the vague "age group" ability modifiers. But, I think on the whole, the age of the character and their maturity and their acquired skills are really more dependent on their story (as interpreted by the crunchy bits on their character sheet).

Seems to me though, if you are going to allow those being applied, or, if you want Age to play a role in the character balance in general, then you have to kind of follow the established "Starting Ages" for various classes..which I think it safe to say were almost universally ignored by groups I played with. hahaha.

um...I dunno if any of this helps...I seem to have flow myself down the stream of consciousness. But I think my point was, in the "older/pre-3 editions" reconciliating long-lived v. short-lived races was a combination of "in the game world" accepted hand-waving and assumptions about the culture that played into/explained some of the rules, "special abilities" and bonuses allowed the long-lived races. So between the two we never really thought of varying ages as "unbalanced" or not making sense in the game world/narrative.

--Steel Dragons

 

[Aberzanzorax]

The three simplest ways I would attempt to solve this, at least in 3e D&D, are:

1. Change the fluff. Elves can be very ancient, but they're not teenagers at 100 years old. That is, an 18 year old elf is about the same age as an 18 year old human....so adventurer elves will not be ancient...though they have the potential to become so.

2. Keep the fluff, change the crunch. Elven adventurers become a level adjusted race, along with accompanying benefits.

3. Change the world. All elves are at least 5th level. You can play one when you get to level 5 if you like. When players meet elves, the peasants are generally level 5 adventuring classes (mostly wizards) and elves do not have NPC classes.

 

[Spatula]

Interesting discussion. Personally, I never really liked the idea that each race's age categories were relative to their lifespan, especially when it's going to take a century or more to reach adulthood. Whatever cultural, social, or mental norms are given as the reason for the slow maturation seem to go out the window as soon as the game starts and the long-lived PC advances just as fast as PCs that belong to the "burning brightly" races.

What came to me while reading this thread is the question of what mechanical ways can one represent the "humans are short-lived and single-minded, and demihumans are long-lived dabblers" concept? (IIRC, this was one of the rationalizations for multiclassing and level limits in 1e/2e) My first thought is skills. Age gives bonus skill points, but they have to be spread around. Maybe limit the bonus points to "background" skills. The level 1 human fighter started off as a blacksmith, or maybe a farmer. The level 1 elven fighter is trained in both, and can speak a lot of languages besides. This would have to be balanced against the other racial traits.

The other thought I had is related to classes. Long-lived dabblers can only advance to level X in any given class, similar to level limits in 1e. But when they hit the limit, they pick up another class.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Frankly, I don't have it have any impact, because there are not elements of the game that force it to have impact anymore (like aging effects from seeing ghosts, potions of haste, and the like).

I look to the players to roleplay any elements that differences in ages of their characters, and the age-outlook their races may have based on longevity, but as a DM, I don't otherwise do anything.

It's a cop out, I know. Perhaps if I ran a campaign that spanned decades we could have adventures based on the heroes getting old, raising their kids, and making clever use of age-related ability modifiers, but I haven't desired to go that far.

 

[Pheonix0114]

In my homebrew world I handled this by changing the crunch on how fast races mature. Elves reach adulthood by 30, though they do live for almost a millennium. The balance is that elves are much less fertile. Elves don't have children often, over their entire life they might have only 2-3 children, similar to a Human over their shorter span. Many old elves used to be adventurers, but now they've put that away and are the elders of their people. Therefore, the elf in the party isn't much older than his human friend, he will just far out live him.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I guess the initial question is "should we?" A great many things are hand waived in RPGs such that all forms of strength are represented by a single statistic and most forms of damage are absorbed by a single pool of hit points.

True although for me hit points, as long as they are separated from physical damage are fine to be abstracted together (but that is for a different thread).

In life, age can bring with it a great range of progressions and, perhaps, it is foolish to presume that for all persons and all races a linear path of improvement and decline is followed.

I guess what I am saying is, maybe we can handle it with fluff.

Perhaps it is foolish and in regards to Elves, it is unfair to assume that they will fritter away their early years nourished on nothing more than elfbread and honey. Surely there will be some that will take greater advantage of their years to focus on particular things. To only present the frittering option to players seems to be doing the race a disservice. But what further options to offer without having every optimizer playing an elvish something?

But let's assume we cannot. The next question is, "should we?" Does the concept of the 300 year old elf really do as much good as it does harm? How many players really seem to own up to the fact that their elf has three centuries of life experiences under their belt to RP a being that truly understand the gravitas of the world around them? Probably not too many. Maybe it'd be better to just bring their ages more in line with other races.

I guess what I'm saying is, didn't we create this problem ourselves?

Indeed; in investing in the Tolkien elf, we have surely burdened ourselves with a lot of stuff - but a lot of stuff that richly resonates "fantasy and magic" in the worlds a lot of us create. To cheat the Elvish race of this heritage again in the name of simplicity is perhaps doing them a disservice. If players fail to roleplay three centuries of life, is it because they are being lazy or because there are not enough mechanical footholds to roleplay off of? I think that can sometimes be the problem with the fluff-only approach... when the dice get rolling and the XP stacks up, the character's narrative can quickly get lost.

But let's assume that isn't the case. Then we have an issue that maybe new rules are ripe to solve. I think statistics might have been a good mechanism pre-3e, but the importance of stats 3e and beyond means that you'll just make all wizards old (and more powerful) and all warriors young (and have longer until they're more powerful). That isn't a strong solution.

This is the danger when you make playing an older wiser elf more appealing than a younger one.

I think a better bet is to introduce little traits or flaws that are flavorful and evoke the feeling you want without substantially interrupting the game mechanics. So a flaw for "old age" might be that you are always encumbered irrespective of weight carried. You are slower, a little worse at skills, but the aged knight is no worse off because his armor already encumbered him. That way, the flavor is present but no one is so punished that their desire to RP is crushed by the impact of your rules.

Selective rules that are rich in flavour and carry just enough mechanical weight seems a very good approach. I like this; definitely something to build from.

Thanks for the input - you have got me thinking and that is what these boards are for so thank you. I must spread a little more love before I can XP you unfortunately. I'm getting there though.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Herremann the Wise]

You need to balance this when the campaign will cover enough in-game time that the characters will age enough to make a difference: the human going from young to old, while the elf stays basically unchanged.

I think balancing things further down the campaign track compared to when "starting" the campaign is much trickier. It is highly dependent upon so many factors... a lot of foreseeable headaches.

Otherwise, I don't usually worry about it, to be honest. Yes, so the elf is 300 years old. In D&D time isn't the primary way to advance ability - action is. If I restrict all character concepts to have seen roughly the same amount of action at campaign start, then the age at start isn't terribly relevant. The elf may be 10 times older than the human, but that doesn't mean he's 10 times more experienced in game terms.

I think there's some really interesting points that can be drawn from this. Firstly is that if "action" is the determiner, then the elf has had a lot more time and possibly opportunity to have "acted". You can certainly rule that all starting characters have seen the same amount of "action" but in truth, I am looking for ways to differentiate long-lived and short-lived races rather than increase the similarities. I'm not so much looking to explain away the differences as emphasize them but still have either option viable. A tricky task but the more replies this thread is getting the more whacky ideas I'm forming.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[The Human Target]

Assume for this discussion that the players involved prefer for there to be a measure of balance between the PCs regardless of race or age.

Okay, assuming that my answer would be... don't worry about it.

Regardless of age, race, or gender all PCs advance at the same rate.

There seems to be no reason to make things more complicated.

 

[howandwhy99]

Assume for this discussion that the players involved prefer for there to be a measure of balance between the PCs regardless of race or age.

How do you reconcile the differences between short-lived and long-lived races in your game? By this, I mean how do you "balance" between a 300 year old elf and an 18 year old human in terms of their abilities? Surely the elf is going to be much more highly skilled (even if most game systems seem to ignore this), particularly if they left their Elvish family when very young? And what happens if you compare that 18 year old human with a 35 year old human who has seen almost double the years? How do you "balance" them at the game table?

Balancing between PCs like a skirmish level miniatures game isn't really possible or desirable in my game, but it is basically balanced between characters at the start of the campaign.

Synching short-lived and long-lived races is more difficult than balancing within a race by age. For me, it really comes down to the abilities of each race, focusing on maturation, aging, and activity cycles. A 300 year old elf and an 18 year old human doesn't mean much unless I know where each is in their life stages. 16-18 is the start of early adulthood for humans and their earliest starting ages for most classes. 300 for an elf is probably middle-aged, it's almost the same as the 35 year old human.

All PCs begin at 1st level, 0 XP. Each begins by rolling 3d6 for each ability score and x10 for starting wealth. This is occurs regardless of age or race. 0 XP means the character has NO PC-Class experience. Older aged PCs starting out are at a severe disadvantage due to the game having one of its ultimate bounds as natural death. Start at 35 (or 300) means they are far closer to that limit. In return they also have been busy performing an NPC class (or begging), and not simply an apprentice level training like most secondary skills. This means the starting PC can make money more easily by working another profession than the others. But, if they do so, they aren't learning the PC class and getting XP for that. They left their old class and trained for years to become the PC class they are just now beginning to practice. This is the trade off in limited aging: a liveable wage in relative security is an option, but it means avoiding adventuring, treasure, and gaining PC class levels.

Elves may be long lived compared to humans, but they are not as productive over the same period of time. The 300 year old elf begins just as the 35 year old human. Maybe his earlier NPC class was race specific, but his starting stats remain the same - barring any adjustments to aging. (Aging adjustments would come with commensurate benefits at start in goods, monies and/or NPC class proficiencies). Elves tend to spend a lot of time doing what elves do, not being clerics or fighters or wizards. So a 300 year old elf is still a 1st level wizard at 0 XP with 1 spell / day, 4 known at start.