TwiceBorn2
Adventurer
Ket: also indigenous peoples of Siberia The Inexplicable Origins of the Ket People of Siberia
- Ket (a blended Baklunish + Suel-Oeridian nation)
EDIT: And Ull is spelled with two "l"
Ket: also indigenous peoples of Siberia The Inexplicable Origins of the Ket People of Siberia
- Ket (a blended Baklunish + Suel-Oeridian nation)
Thanks for finding the typoKet: also indigenous peoples of Siberia The Inexplicable Origins of the Ket People of Siberia
EDIT: And Ull is spelled with two "l"
Here are my revised Baklunish entries with more background:Ket: also indigenous peoples of Siberia The Inexplicable Origins of the Ket People of Siberia
EDIT: And Ull is spelled with two "l"
You are definitely better read on the subject of world cultures than I, so I will gladly defer to your analysis. That said, while I have no privileged insights into Gygax's naming of Ket, he also seems to have been very well read and intentional in his naming conventions. I don't think it's a stretch to think that if Gygax had been inspired by the Uyghurs, Chukchi and/or Koryaks, that he might also have known about the Ket of Siberia.Thanks for finding the typo
I’m aware of the Ket. I did graduate work in Native American Studies, and have read linguistics papers about the Yeniseian relationship with languages in the Americas. And, I do not think that, in this case, the designer (Gygax) was aware of or referencing the Ket. For three reasons:
1) The Arab (and Turkic) inspiration for the Baklunish peoples is clearly established.
2) There is no indication whatsoever of an Indigenous Siberian culture for Greyhawk’s Ket.
3) The wordshape /Ket/ is so short and simple it could’ve been inspired by any number of other sources, or coined as a fantastic name. For example “qat” or “khat”: qat - Wiktionary
I agree wholeheartedly with this.Update: I added the last cultural section to the OP...Ancient Roman.
Did I forget any Roman motifs? Specifically: does anyone have an official source for Old Oeridian language being like Latin, or am I just making that up? The Old Oeridian glossary at the Greyhawk Wiki doesn't look very Latin, but I seem to recall that some designers have used Latin for Old Oeridian. (Living Greyhawk?)
I believe I now have a section for all the Earthly ethnonational analogues which are found in the D&D Multiverse.
~Ancient Roman:
- In Oerth:
- The Old Oeridian language has some similarities with Latin.
- The ancient Oeridian peoples are ~similar to the Latin / Southern European peoples, in that their blending with the Suloise peoples (~Germanic / Northern European) comprise the ~European population of the Flanaess: "The inner mixture of Oeridians with Suloise tends toward a typical European-mix looking population." --Gary Gygax, DRAGON #52, p.24
- The command words on each piece of the Rod of Seven Parts are "Ruat," "Coelum," "Fiat," "Justitia," "Ecce," "Lex," and "Rex," which collectively make up a Latin phrase that translates into "Though chaos reign, let justice be done. Behold! Law is king."
Ah, he might have known of it, but for the reasons stated, it doesn't pass my muster for the purposes of this chart. Also, I don't know if Chakji and Guryik were created by Eric Mona for the LGG (riffing off of the Tiger Nomads), or if he got that from Gygaxian writings. But either way, /ket/ doesn't pass the muster, for my purposes.I don't think it's a stretch to think that if Gygax had been inspired by the Uyghurs, Chukchi and/or Koryaks, that he might also have known about the Ket of Siberia.
Ah thanks, I was actually looking for ~Slavic references for Stonefist, because I was just going off of memory. I'd thought I'd read some DRAGON mag article in the 90s about using Slavic flavor for Stonefist Barbarians, but I wasn't sure if I was remembering right. I'll aim to include these in the Hold of Stonefist entry.Yes, the name "Vlekstaad" (capital of the Hold) sounds vaguely Slavic, as does the name of the Hold's "founder"--Vlek Col Vlekzed...
but Vlekzed was himself exiled from the Rovers of the Barrens (Arapahi, i.e., "indigenous North Americans?"). His once-Rover followers have since intermarried with the Germanic/Norse Suloise barbarians of the Thillonrian Peninsula (and assorted riffraff from the Bandit Kingdoms), thereby producing a... quasi-Slavic culture and linguistic conventions? That's messy alright. But this is a fantasy setting, so sure, why not?
Perhaps Ket had once been home to indigenous ("Flan"?) herders that have long since been pushed by waves of pre-Cataclysm Oeridian migrants and subsequent waves of Baklunish conquerors into the Yatils... if not to outright extinction? I also find this entry in the Merriam-Webster dictionary for "ket" interesting:
Definition of ket
(Entry 1 of 4)
1dialectal, British
a: CARRION
b: FILTH, RUBBISH
2dialectal, British : a good-for-nothing person
Source://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ket#:~:text=Definition%20of%20ket,a%20good%2Dfor%2Dnothing%20person
I can definitely imagine the Suloise-Oeridian Knights of the Watch stationed in Bissel (akin to Knights Templars guarding the gateway between eastern "European" and western Baklunish "Arabic/Turkic" cultures) corrupting the original name of Ket, whatever it may have been in the tongue of its indigenous peoples or subsequent Baklunish settlers--perhaps "gat" or "khat" as you suggest--into something with more condescending and outright racist connotations. As I see it, the names associated with territories on the Darlene map and in various campaign books/folios are the names by which the dominant humans of the Flanaess--the Oeridians (Suloise-Oeridians in the Sheldomar Valley)--refer to those regions.
Yup.I've done cultural analyses of other worlds too (such as Tolkien's Middle-earth and Star Wars), and it's really both an art and a science. To see where the real-world cultural framework holds, and where it dissolves into free creation. Often there are various frameworks that simultaneously overlap with each other.
Probably, the Greyhawk term "Bakl-un" derives from reallife Baikal in Siberia.For example, basically, the term "Baklunish" served as the stand-in for "Arabs." As a graspable term for the "Arab" nations of Oerth. And this framework holds pretty well at the level of the "present-day" of Oerth.
But then Gygax (and/or other GH designers) also says that the Tiger Nomads and Wolf Nomads are Baklunish. The real-world Turkic peoples aren't Arab. Yet those Nomads are said to be mixed with indigenous Flan. I think that equation just provides a vague justification for why the Tiger and Wolf Nomads are culturally and physiognomically distinct from the "Arabs". And their Baklunish connection keeps a sort of "Islamic" vibe for them, since the RW Uyghurs and (and many of the) Kipchaks were Muslims. I don't think much more can be read into it.
The winter "Barbarians" correspond to the Norse communities in North America.Same for the example you gave. Of Flan + Suloise = ~Slavic
Thanks! I added them to the OP. Also renamed the section to more clearly include medieval Jewish culture:Clay golems are from Jewish folklore, but Medieval Poland, not Ancient Israel.
Magical phylacteries at various points can be viewed as Jewish tephillin or general Egyptian and other ancient world phylacteries/magical amulets. This includes lich phylacteries, but also phylacteries of faithfulness and so on.
Horn of blasting is evocative of the trumpets at the Battle of Jericho.
Snake Staff is similar to Moses and the Egyptian magicians turning their staves into snakes.
Many D&D cleric spells are Torah inspired. Part water and Moses at the Red Sea. Sticks to snakes and Moses and the Egyptian magicians. Flame strike and Elijah's contest against the worshippers of Baal. Create food and water and mana from heaven as the Israelites cross the desert.
You can also look at Kets most infamous son, Rary, who looks and dresses very Arabic.Thanks for finding the typo
I’m aware of the Ket. I did graduate work in Native American Studies, and have read linguistics papers about the Yeniseian relationship with languages in the Americas. And, I do not think that, in this case, the designer (Gygax) was aware of or referencing the Ket. For three reasons:
1) The Arab (and Turkic) inspiration for the Baklunish peoples is clearly established.
2) There is no indication whatsoever of an Indigenous Siberian culture for Greyhawk’s Ket.
3) The wordshape /Ket/ is so short and simple it could’ve been inspired by any number of other sources, or coined as a fantastic name. For example “qat” or “khat”: qat - Wiktionary
Not sure of this has come up, but the 2e dragonlance book lists, I think, 4 barbarian cultures with the sea barbarians being black. Can't find out exactly where they call home, perhaps the coastal regions of Nordmaar are one of many regions where they berth their ships when not raiding.For Krynn (but also for some of the other worlds) there’s always a caveat that motifs are especially blended. I’m not actually saying the Nordmen are outright Norsemen. They’re Norsemen in a jungle clime with Aztec names. Whose coastal folk are Black. And whose Horse Barbarian cousins are Turko-Mongolic khans. And whose culture is sifted through the Krynnish aesthetic and mythology (no Odin and Aesir!).
A cultural entry means different things depending on which world it’s from. For Mystara, it often means a close parallel. For Oerth, a more blended parallel. For Krynn, even more blended, to the extent that it’s only one of several “source motifs” for that culture, covering only a single aspect.
When I post the Norse-Germanic section, you’ll see that spectrum too:
-Mystara’s Northern Reaches. Very close parallel to earthly Norse.
-Oerth’s Snow & Ice Barbarians are more fantastic.
-As are Toril’s Uthgardt Barbarians.
-And even moreso, Krynn’s Nordmen.
-If there are any Norse/Viking motifs in Eberron, I imagine they are even more effervescent.
The listing of Krynnish Nordmen under ~Norse-Germanic doesn’t mean they are as parallel as the other worlds’ Norsemen analogues.
Same applies to all the sections on the chart.
Could you find a reference for the Sea Barbarians?Not sure of this has come up, but the 2e dragonlance book lists, I think, 4 barbarian cultures with the sea barbarians being black. Can't find out exactly where they call home, perhaps the coastal regions of Nordmaar are one of many regions where they berth their ships when not raiding.
Sure, in the 2e book Tales of the Lance: World Book of Ansalon, pg 55-56. I just had another read, the sea barbarians are listed as descendants of mariners from Istar. I've copied the relevant sections below for the sea barbarians. Lifestyle looks like it has some info on where they maintain some more permanent settlements. I always thought of them as the archetype for the mariner warrior class, probably helped along by the art used in the book.Could you find a reference for the Sea Barbarians?
Sure, in the 2e book Tales of the Lance: World Book of Ansalon, pg 55-56. I just had another read, the sea barbarians are listed as descendants of mariners from Istar. I've copied the relevant sections below for the sea barbarians. Lifestyle looks like it has some info on where they maintain some more permanent settlements. I always thought of them as the archetype for the mariner warrior class, probably helped along by the art used in the book.
Appearance
Sea barbarians have richer skin tones than other barbarians. Their skin ranges from light brown to glowing black. They wear their tightly curled black hair closely cropped to their heads. Their eyes flash with emotion—joy one moment and wrath the next—much like the volatile sea. Sea barbarians enjoy flamboyant and gaudy garb of sailcloth, homespun, or burlap. Life among the roaring billows and pitching waves makes these folk boisterous and courageous. Even so, they are the most civilized of the barbaric races.
Personality
Sea barbarians differ greatly from their barbarian brothers. On the outside, these loud, friendly people brim with good cheer. Underneath, though, sea barbarians harbor a haughty pride that keeps them distant from other races. Even so, sea barbarians deal fairly with those they meet and, given time, develop friendships that can weather any storm.
History
The sea barbarians have an entirely different history. They arose as mariners of once-mighty Istar. The Cataclysm destroyed the heart-city of their shipping business and dispersed the mariners throughout the world. Since the Zero Hour, mariners have led a somewhat nomadic existence. They never settle permanently: the urge to travel fills their blood.
Lifestyle
The sea barbarians live differently. Although they spend most of their time at sea, they do dock occasionally. Descendants of city dwellers, these barbarians maintain port cities where they can rest and sell their cargos. The city of Sea Reach on the island of Saifhum is one such bedroom town for sea barbarians. They forbid foreign traffic into Sea Reach, wishing to keep the foul folk of Ansalon at arm's reach.
This is great! I'll add the Sea Barbarians to my chart.Sure, in the 2e book Tales of the Lance: World Book of Ansalon, pg 55-56. I just had another read, the sea barbarians are listed as descendants of mariners from Istar. I've copied the relevant sections below for the sea barbarians. Lifestyle looks like it has some info on where they maintain some more permanent settlements. I always thought of them as the archetype for the mariner warrior class, probably helped along by the art used in the book.
Appearance
Sea barbarians have richer skin tones than other barbarians. Their skin ranges from light brown to glowing black. They wear their tightly curled black hair closely cropped to their heads. Their eyes flash with emotion—joy one moment and wrath the next—much like the volatile sea. Sea barbarians enjoy flamboyant and gaudy garb of sailcloth, homespun, or burlap. Life among the roaring billows and pitching waves makes these folk boisterous and courageous. Even so, they are the most civilized of the barbaric races.
Personality
Sea barbarians differ greatly from their barbarian brothers. On the outside, these loud, friendly people brim with good cheer. Underneath, though, sea barbarians harbor a haughty pride that keeps them distant from other races. Even so, sea barbarians deal fairly with those they meet and, given time, develop friendships that can weather any storm.
History
The sea barbarians have an entirely different history. They arose as mariners of once-mighty Istar. The Cataclysm destroyed the heart-city of their shipping business and dispersed the mariners throughout the world. Since the Zero Hour, mariners have led a somewhat nomadic existence. They never settle permanently: the urge to travel fills their blood.
Lifestyle
The sea barbarians live differently. Although they spend most of their time at sea, they do dock occasionally. Descendants of city dwellers, these barbarians maintain port cities where they can rest and sell their cargos. The city of Sea Reach on the island of Saifhum is one such bedroom town for sea barbarians. They forbid foreign traffic into Sea Reach, wishing to keep the foul folk of Ansalon at arm's reach.
I'm not sure it's best to use the name of the city in the game as a basis to link it to a culture in the real world. More than likely it was just a cool sounding name than any relation to the ancient goddess.Istar (≈ Babylonian goddess Ishtar) is mainly Iraq Mesopotamia. However, Istar (≈ related Canaanite goddess Ashtarte) is Lebanon fertile crescent.
In this sense, the Istar "mariners" are prominently the coastal Phoenicians, today Lebanon. The Phoenicians have sailor port towns all around the Mediterranean, even as far as Spain, and Carthage in Africa is a famous example, today Tunisia.
The physical characteristics match SE Asia. Both linguistically and phenotypically, and with a famous maritime culture (!), at least the sailors appear to be Phoenician-esque.I'm not sure it's best to use the name of the city in the game as a basis to link it to a culture in the real world. More than likely it was just a cool sounding name than any relation to the ancient goddess.
Yeah it’s really not. Istar is the Papal States, complete with faux Latin tongue. Any Babylonian elements are put in because of the whole Great Apostasy angle (see my earlier post)The physical characteristics match SE Asia. Both linguistically and phenotypically, and with a famous maritime culture (!), at least the sailors appear to be Phoenician-esque.
That said, the inland area of Istar proper, far from the coast, is nonmaritime, and apparently Babylon-esque.
Tharquish is Rome.Yeah it’s really not. Istar is the Papal States, complete with faux Latin tongue. Any Babylonian elements are put in because of the whole Great Apostasy angle (see my earlier post)
Any maritime angle fits Italy - the masters of the Mediterranean during the medieval era.