Radical prestige class modifications

[Plane Sailing]

I think I'm going off one of the key tenets of the prestige class.

The entry requirements.

Why is this? What I'm seeing time and time again is that characters are now being designed and planned out specifically with one particular prestige class in mind.

I think I would prefer a system which handles it more by role-playing and "testing" by an organisation. There might be some minimum standards (" Let's see you cast a 3rd level spell" / "Demonstrate you can strike at two targets quickly" (BAB6+)) but other than that, it comes down to finding the right people, persuading them (or doing quests for them)...

The typical storybook situation is that someone finds a mentor who then trains them in the inner mysteries... not that they start out as a rookie farm boy planning for it... it becomes too mechanistic for my liking.

By arranging things this way, it makes it possible for a character to come across prestige organisations at any point in the campaign and decide to attempt to join them, without worrying about the particular selection of feats and stuff behind them.

Of course, this might not work in a campaign where any prestige class is allowed in willy-nilly. I keep quite a tight reign on what is available, in order to ensure that each class fits in with the campaign setting which I use. I'm happy that none of the prestige classes which I presently have are so wonderful that they have to be balanced by characters taking rubbish feats/skills beforehand in order to get into them

This way, prestige classes abilities depend more upon what they get when they are a member of the class, rather than what they have to plan for in their adventuring life ahead of them...

Does this have a resonance with anyone else?

Cheers

 

[Rybaer]

I think this would work just fine as long as you, as the DM, keep a close handle on what sort of prestige classes are allowed. The prereq's on most prestige classes are there as guides for the minimum level someone of a given background should have to be to gain access to the class...and the abilities of the prestige class are often targeted this character level and higher.

What you're proposing is probably more in line with the flavor and spirit of what prestige classes were meant to be in the first place. They are not so much higher power character classes as they are small organizations of elite membership, often with unique abilities. The prereq's are a combination of power balance and obligatory rules guidelines.

 

[Corlon]

well, its every farmboy's dream

Some farmboys, pcs, anyone, may here about the great adventures and glory the (enter prestige class name here) have accomplished. So in someways it would work for them to plan, everyone has a lifelong goal, and it doesn't just happen in a couple weeks where you meet someone and you say, "hey! thats a pretty cool organization, I think I'll join."

I think modifiing some of the requirements is cool (such as the blood mage, and the forsaker who don't really have organizations), but for things like the sacred exorcist and things like that, the churches and organizations have certain expectations that they expect to be fullfilled.

And some others it just makes sense (how are you going to be an arcane trickster if you don't have sneak attack, spells, and rougish skills??)

But its ur campaign soooo...

 

[Someone]

Given the fact that the leaders or mentors can´t see the charcter sheet, I always envisioned some of the the requirements as tests. For example, the Fists of Hextor have a alingment requisite. In their iniciation, they must do and endure things that only men of the apropiate alingment would do. Others are knowledge needed to adquire the next specialized step (you must be able to walk before being able to run)

Hmm... thinking on the tests, you can add other requirements, like "Special: The character must survive without help the Maze of Doom under the guild tower"

 

[Technik4]

Thoughts

PrC requirements are taken wayyy too harshly by most dms, imo. For instance, lets say a PrC requires endurance, how is anyone in that organization going to actually "know" that the character has it? Only by means of a test. The PC may hear of the test, and how many have failed, the DM can suggest the feat to the PC, saying it makes the test more do-able, but is it actually required? 1/year for every year you try to get in, one lucky year, you roll high, pass all the endurance tests, without the feat.

I have the same problem with skill focus requirements, or alertness. It all boils down to a certain level of quality, or a certain amount of getting something "right". For mere initiations, luck could make someone with very few of the right feats, able to get in. What if you took Expertise instead of Dodge? Or if you had a homebrew feat which increased your armor class for one type of armor. Or some weird psychic feat that gave you more armor, or even the monks natural ability. Shouldnt the requirement be some sort of supernatural (not sure if Im getting the type right) armor bonus?

As far as having your PCs go the route of a PrC, this is common. Games are much more fun if you play it by ear, take what your character would want, and if you really want to play a PrC, work with your DM to modify something existing (if youre cautious) or come up with something new. Either way, consider PrCs where the player is UNaware of the requirements slightly more powerful than one which is known, rewarding the character for not just following a plan, and allowing for the PC not getting in the PrC as early as possible, which is also common.

Technik

 

[DM with a vengence]

[Dragonstar PrC] The Sniper

Sniper
**Crack-Pow!** The orc bodyguard’s head explodes in a spray of mist, showering the warlord with bone fragments. For a moment the warlord’s band stand in stunned silence, then another shot rings out. The tribe’s shaman collapses, his femur shattered and his blood spurting from severed arteries. Orc’s scramble and dive for cover as a third shot cuts through them and smacks wetly into an orc’s chest, ripping his heart to shreds. The warlord draws his fabled ax and charges, the rest of his band gathering behind him. For a moment, a red dot dances across his face, before settling on one red, insane eye. Then the dot disappears, along with the warlord’s head as a fourth shot renders the leader, and his clan, headless. The remaining orcs lose momentum, their charge dying with their leader as the sniper proceeds to finishes them each with a single aimed shot.

Snipers are the master marksmen of the Dragon Empire. While the lack the sheer combat prowess of fighters and rangers, the sniper can deal serious damage at extreme ranges. Trained to operate singly or in pairs, snipers focus on skills that allow them to get to a perch safely, remain undetected, and them leave before enemy patrols can close on their position. With all of the high-tech energy weaponry available, one might ask why the traditional weapon of the sniper continues to be a high-powered semi-automatic rifle. The reason for this is stealth. A slug gun has a spot DC of 10, or 20 if flash suppressed (-10 at night), and this is modified by distance, which is often over 300 feet, and with -1 per 10’ of distance, spotting a sniper can be well nigh impossible. On the other hand, an energy weapon has a spot DC of 10, or 0 at night, and this can be spotted from anywhere along the beam length. Any sniper brave enough to use an energy weapon will get one very devastating shot, and then will have his position shot to shreds by the target’s bodyguards. This also the reason why snipers use single shots. While a burst of automatic fire can have withering effects, it effective triples you chance of getting spotted.

The Sniper.
Hit Die: d6

Requirements.
BAB 5+
Skills: Hide, Spot, 8+ ranks
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Crack Shot, Technical Proficiency.

Abilities.
BAB: ½ level (As Wizard)
Saves: Fortitude Good, Reflex Poor, Will Poor, (As Fighter)
Skill Points: 4+Int mod
Class Skills: Balance(Dex), Climb (Str), Hide (Dex), Intuit Directiom (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Navigate (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Wilderness Lore (Wis).

Special.
1 Marksman +1
2 Pinpoint Accuracy 1d6
3 Marksman +2
4 Lock In
5 Marksman +3, Pinpoint Accuracy 2d6
6 No Such Thing as Luck 1/day
7 Marksman +4, Perfect Shot 1/day
8 Pinpoint Accuracy 3d6
9 Marksman +5, No Such Thing as Luck 3/day
10 Headshot 1/day

Marksman: The sniper’s constant training with his favored weapon gives him amazing accuracy. When using a sniper rifle or other long-arm he gains the listed competence bonus to his attacks. This bonus applies only as long as he is firing single shots, he does not gain the bonus when firing bursts or suppressive fire, or using pistols or other weapons. This bonus also counts as BAB for the purposes of feat perquisites relating to long-arms, but does not confer additional attacks or any other benefit. Effectively, this allows the sniper to gain and use feats such as Improved Critical or Called Shot (see below) for his sniper rifle as if he had a Fighter’s BAB.

Pinpoint Accuracy: The sniper gains the listed bonus to damage when using a long arm against an unaware target. This is similar to Sneak Attack in many ways, as Uncanny Dodge and Fortification work against it, and it is not multiplied by critical hits, but it has several important differences. First, it only applies to unaware or surprised targets when the sniper is using long-arms, and second it is effective out to one range increment of the weapon. This improves by +1d6 at 5th and 8th levels.

Lock In. Each round that a sniper spends a full round action studying a target, his critical threat range against that target is increased by one, to a maximum equal to his class levels. If, at any point during the process he fails to study the target for a round, he loses the increased threat range. This bonus is applied against his first attack against the target and then lost until he can study it again.

No Such Thing as Luck: Once a day, the sniper can reroll one of the follow. An attack roll with a long-arm, a critical confirmation roll with a long-arm, or a damage roll with a long-arm. he can accept either one of the results. He can do this 3 times a day at 9th level. This ability can be used more than once a round, but cannot be applied more than once to the same roll.

Perfect Shot: Once a day the sniper can make a single attack roll with a long-arm that gains a +20 insight bonus to attack as the True Strike spell.

Headshot: Once a day, a 10th level sniper can make one attack that does maximum damage to a target. Effectively, it’s like he rolled the highest for everything, including critical damage, Pinpoint Accuracy, energy enhancements, and so on. This is the pinnacle of a sniper’s power and often triggers a save for massive damage. This ability does not automatically score a critical, but Lock In and No Such Thing as Luck will almost assure success.

New Feat:
Called Shot [General]
Perquisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dex 13+, BAB +1.
Benefit: As a full round action, you may make a single ranged attack that deals extra damage. You subtract a number from your BAB, up to your BAB, and add half this number to damage. In addition, if the weapon you are using has a specific effect for which there is a save (Arrow of Slaying) then the save DC is increased by two. This ability has no effect on any other attacks you make that round, such as those from haste.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Thoughts

PrC requirements are taken wayyy too harshly by most dms, imo. For instance, lets say a PrC requires endurance, how is anyone in that organization going to actually "know" that the character has it? Only by means of a test. The PC may hear of the test, and how many have failed, the DM can suggest the feat to the PC, saying it makes the test more do-able, but is it actually required? 1/year for every year you try to get in, one lucky year, you roll high, pass all the endurance tests, without the feat.

etc...

Yes, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm thinking of. I like the way that you explain it. After all, for feats of endurance someone with 10 CON and the endurance feat is actually indistinguishable from someone with 18 CON; the whole alertness and skill focus issue description is good too.

I think I'll go through the various prestige classes I allow (and have created) and think about how each of them could have their pre-requisites "retooled" in terms of tests and quests.

Cheers

 

[Cheiromancer]

How would one distinguish between ranks in a skill and a bonus provided by a high ability score? This distinction is what limits a PrCl to characters of a certain level.

Or is this also one of the radical modifications?

 

[Crothian]

Re: Thoughts

PrC requirements are taken wayyy too harshly by most dms, imo. For instance, lets say a PrC requires endurance, how is anyone in that organization going to actually "know" that the character has it? Only by means of a test. The PC may hear of the test, and how many have failed, the DM can suggest the feat to the PC, saying it makes the test more do-able, but is it actually required? 1/year for every year you try to get in, one lucky year, you roll high, pass all the endurance tests, without the feat.

It's interesting how you pick on the weaker feats. How are you going to test for PA. Hit this harder? Well, that's damage and since we use varying damage dice I could roill low once, and higher hte next time and it looks like I'm using PA. Or a higher str verse a lower str person. Very few prerewuites can yuou actually look at and say someone definatly has them without meta gaming. The prerequites are not there to make perfect sense in game, the are there to balance out the class.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'll agree that too many people design their character specifically towards a certain Prestige Class, although with the number of Prestige Classes out there you could argue that you're just playing your normal way and that Prestige Class just happens to be closest to what you wanted to become.

The problem is that many Prestige Classes require you to take a "useless" or unpopular Feat as a cost of entry. Loremaster requires Skill Focus, a more-or-less useless Feat. No one, in his natural evolution as a character, would take that Feat. So, if you're enforcing some sort of "natural" growth, no one will ever qualify for that class. This requirement was necessary for power balancing, but it really detracts from the immersiveness.

The solution, IMHO, isn't to make the entry requirements easier, it's to improve certain Feats. No Feat should ever be entirely reproducible by using skill points or increasing an attribute unless it's a prerequisite for a much better Feat. Feats are supposed to be special ("Heroic Feats" shouldn't mean you're a bit better at reading a book). People who play a Loremaster-style character should WANT to take Skill Focus in a Knowledge skill. But, that doesn't happen.

Change Skill Focus so that it's not just a straight +2 to the skill (for example, letting you re-roll a 5 or less and/or letting you Take 10 under duress), and people might consider taking it, and then it'll make a lot more sense to use as a prerequisite. Change Endurance so that it not only gives you a bonus to certain rolls, it makes some things that were previously impossible (say, moving overland on foot for 24+ hours at a time) possible. Nothing big, just give each Feat something that can't be reproduced any other way, and it starts to make more sense as an entrance requirement.

Just my opinion, of course.