True
First I apologize for not getting back to this thread. Second, i think "useless" feats are not good entry points to the prc, but that doesn't mean we make feats better. For instance, how great would some of the "power' feats be if they weren't in a chain of feats? I mean, mobility is decent, but how many people would take it if you didn't HAVE to in order to get spring attack? Probably more than those that take skill focus, granted, but you won't find that skill in sultan of smack or min/max threads if it wasn't part of a chain.
So, don't make skill focus more powerful, just make a powerful progression. Improved Skill Focus for instance, might grant an additional +2, for a total of +4 to a skill, and may allow you to re-roll on that skill 1/day. Or something. Point is, we should more or less accept most of the basic fundamentals.
To contradict that, I am against people statting their first 20 levels, feat choices, prc choices, possible multiclassing along the way. To some extent. I may not explain this as well as I feel it, but most people have long-term goals or fantasies that they see themselves becoming. This would be a loose sketch of what feats we want to get in life, what job we want to end up at (prc) etc. However, life is rarely so easy. There are roadblocks, barriers, changes in one's destiny, etc.
This is why I don't like people rigidly sticking to their "plans" they made at 2nd level. They are playing out a cookie cutter, granted a cookie they made themselves. I like to see where the dough takes me. I can claim to have taken a wizard level and then a rogue level with a character. Because he started out as a wizard with some cross class ranks in hide, that skill benefited him more than his wizardry, so he chose to advance as a rogue for a bit. Most people would already have determined their wiz/rog levels, what theyre taking first, etc. Or so it seems.
Not that there's anything "wrong" with that, I just see it as more meta-gaming.
As far as pre-reqs for getting into a prc, what if it is power attack? Maybe the test is to strike an object so hard it shatters, something that would be more difficult without power attack. And if they roll a crit, good you passed that test. Now pass the cleave test where you are beset by goblins and watched from afar. If it takes you too long to "cleave" them down, you must train harder. Eventually your bab may be such that you emulate cleave enough to pass that test. And so forth.
I would have no problems waiving all of the requirements for a weapon master if I had a pc who role-played that prc, but decided on different feats. However, he wouldn't get into it at the lowest possible level...that would be seen as a weapon master prodigy, or someone who was particularly determined. And that would require having very specific skills (feats), ie all the pre-reqs.
So, my pre-reqs for the dm prestige classes:
Arcane Archer:
Race: Elf, half-elf, or "elf-friend"
First Test- Flight Speed
You must be able to fire 20 arrows in 1 minute, with good accuracy. (This means, you could have a bab of 6+ or you could have the rapid shot feat, but you would need a higher bonus to hit. ) The course would have various distance targets, with different attack DCs to hit them.
Second Test- Friend or Foe
You must be able to fire into 10 different melee occurring in a ring 30 ft with you as the center. You fail if you hit an elf with the same colored sash as you wear.
Third Test- Mage's Glare
You must perform at least 1 magical spell and cast it. A trained elven mage will be overseeing you, if your magic is too weak, you will fail.
These 3 tests emulate the requirements found on page 28 of the DM Guide.
Assasin
Preliminary Exam-
Change in a room provided by the guild. You have 30 minutes to emerge from the room (which does not contain a disguise kit, only some props) disguised as the opposite sex. Someone who would recogize you from a description will then ask that you divulge at least one tip/trick/secret you used to hide or move silently (DC 15). If he recognizes you or you can't come up with a good enough example, you will not be admitted to the entrance exam.
Entrance Exam-
You are given a mark and 24 hours to hunt down and kill someone. You will be watched, your safety is not promised if you screw up. If you either make the kill or manage to evade the watcher (Rog/Ass at least 1 level higher than you NPC) and make it look like you made a kill you pass. If the watcher suspects any funny business he will try to kill you. If you kill both the mark and the watcher, you start in the guild with more respect.
These 2 tests emulate the requirements given on page 29 of the DM guide.
Blackguard
The Path of Evil
Your mentor will lead you, he will try at every turn to help you pass, epsecially if you are a fallen paladin.
1.You must banter about religion with him (DC 15).
2.You must assist him in making an evil item. The creation process fails if you are not evil. The item usually has a requisite of 5 ranks of hide from the creator, the mentor will try to get you to help him on this aspect, if you cannot, you are a failure.
3. Your mentor will egg you on to slaughter a number of unintelligent (mostly harmless) animals and to collect a quantity of their blood.
4. Your mentor will continually spar with you, often using weapons inscribed with holy or good symbols. They are but illusions, but he will not admit defeat until the weapon has broken.
5. You must don the cloak and bathe in the rotten blood of the animals you slaughtered. Your mentor will try to covince you that the cloak is the magic item you helped him make, and that by bathing with the profane blood you are darkly blessed.
Dwarven Defender
Race: Dwarf
1st Pillar- Conviction
You must pass an oral examination of your ethics in regards to law and order. You will be magically scanned as well, though you may not realize it.
2nd Pillar- Determination
You are given a bar with 2 buckets of water, the size of the buckets and how filled they are are based on your overall strength (measured before the test). You must hold it and not spill more than a few drops for 6 hours. The constitution checks are as follows:
1st hour: DC 10; if fail 1d6 subdual damage, spill drops.
2nd hour: DC 12; if fail 1d6 subdual damage, spill drops.
3rd hour: DC 14; if fail 1d6 subdual damage, spill drops.
4th hour: DC 16; if fail 2d6 subdual damage, spill drops.
5th hour: DC 18; if fail 2d6 subdual damage, spill drops.
6th hour: DC 20; if fail 3d6 subdual damage, spill drops.
If you spill more than 3 times you fail the entire test. If you collapse you fail and may not retest. (The subdual damage is from muscle cramping)
3rd Pillar- Resilience
You must spar against a NPC of your level-1. You get the armor of your choice and a shield. He gets the weapon of his choice. You must survive 1 minute of his attacks
4th Pillar- Duty
You must accompany a unit of defenders or a lone defender on a mission and perform within standards, all of your skills will be put to the test, if you aren't up to their combat standards, they will allow you to re-apply the following season.
The 4 pillars emulate the pre-requisites found on page 33 of the DM's guide.
Loremaster
Divining Lore
You must perform 7 different divinations in front of a seasoned Loremaster. At least one of the spells must be perceived as at least 3rd level.
Specific Lore
Talk intelligetly on 2 different subjects for an hour each. If you have at least 5 ranks you may prepare your talks, granting a +2. If you have 10 or more ranks you may prepare more thoroghly, granting a +4. The DC for both talks is 25. If you fail one by less than 5, you may still attempt the next though it is now a 27.
Arcane Lore
Display your magical arts in 3 unique ways. Suggested methods are modifying spells or creating magical items. Overlaps don't count. (ie- you can't make a pair of echanted gloves, an enchated cloak, and some magical lenses, those are not unique enough).
These are alternate prerequisites for the loremaster prestige class found on page 34 of the DM's guide.
Shadowdancer
Gauntlet of Shadows
An area is decided upon by the shadow council. The gauntlet is a large area which must be "played" upon at night and durig the day. It begins as an elaborate hide and seek game. If you have 5 or more ranks in Hide or Move silently you gain a +2 to your hiding place, if you have 10 or more raks you gain a +4. The 10 potential dancers are give 10 minutes to hide from a master. If you are one of the first 2 caught, you fail. When there are only 8 remaining candidates you must duel, round-robin style. The worst 2 fighters fail. Finally you must perform for the master, the worst performer fails. Assume all other candidates have nearly the requirements in the DMG.
This alternate prerequisite for the shadowdancer prestige class is found on page 35 of the DM's guide.
Many of these tests may make the actual pre-requisites look easy. However, there aren't as many "required" feats/skills, and certainly no "useless" feats, though they usually would help to pass the tests.
Happy Gaming,
Technik
