Railroads (wooh! wooh!)

[wayne62682]

That is one of the reasons I never run them or bought the hardcover. They are nothing but 20 levels of railroading, and lots of people are loving it! Shocks the heck out of me! My players commented that a "campaign" planned out 20 levels in advance is nothing but a big railroad. Has to be.

Sounds like what my group would say.. and IMO it sucks because I think the adventure paths are great and would love to start up a campaign for them.

 

[Quickleaf]

So, what are your thoughts on predetermined plot direction?

Only in a game with long GM prep times like D&D, or when running a purchased linear adventure, have I seen GMs manipulate or force the player to follow a predetermined plot. If done artfully, many players don't even notice and have a great time.

However, if you have a savvy group of players who understand scene framing, who have GMed before, and who can sense railroading, "faking it" won't ameliorate their frustration with being forced/manipulated into a predetermined plot.

I have changed how I write adventures. I write down the problem/situation of the adventure and the role of the characters (or several possible ways they could be involved). I detail the main NPCs. I sketch out brief notes on major setting elements (e.g. traps, puzzles, maps, player handouts, various factions). Finally I write a list of various things to throw at the players that makes sense for the adventure (e.g. "a beligerent jewel merchant accuses you of theft and you soon find yourselves surrounded by guards"). Lastly I try to make a timeline of how the antagonist's plan advances without PC interference (if there is a main antagonist with a plan).
Running an adventure like this is easy. The first scene sets up the conflict and introduces the theme/feel of the game - I pick an interesting NPC or two and have them interact with the PCs. Anytime the PCs start to slow down, I throw something at them.

No need for a pre-determined plot with an adventure structured this way.

 

[Piratecat]

They seem to think that because they wrote up the character they have a right to dictate how it should be played. That can be the problem with con games. It is Role Assumption as opposed to Role Play...

I'm a huge fan of placing role-playing guidelines on character sheets. But if the player wants to ignore or expand on those, that's just fine. I'm never going to tell someone that they can't do something; I will make sure that they know their actions have consequences, but that's half the fun.

The problem in this case is that I'd never played 7th Sea before, and the game was in some ways very fun. I was playing with some friends, and didn't want to act like a spoiled child in ruining the game for everyone. But I've got to say, it grated.

Meanwhile, Shackled City and Age of Worms aren't railroad games. I think they're good examples of how to do long-term plots without railroading.

 

[Nightfall]

Good deal mister PC!

In any case, I can't wait to see how the new adventure path works out for some.

Me I don't mind deviations from the main plots of my games. I do mind when they spend more than a half hour questioning WHY they do something that's not necessary to be come a philosophical discussion...

 

[Treebore]

Sounds like what my group would say.. and IMO it sucks because I think the adventure paths are great and would love to start up a campaign for them.

Well, we could probably fake them out if we really want to.

 

[Nightfall]

Tree,

I have no doubts about your ability to fake out PCs. You seem to have a knack for it.

 

[Treebore]

Its usually pretty easy. Too easy. Faking them out over 20 levels would actually be a challenge. The only way they would know is if they read the adventure path.

 

[Nightfall]

Tree,

Trust me, they'll be faked out until maybe level 13 for Shackled City. Age of Worms...less so. But at about the same level.

 

[Agent Oracle]

There are many opinions on railroaders.

The players are secondary to the story, they serve to act as meat that goes through the random grinder that is this game. There is no actual impact that the players can have on events, and they figure it out within the first session.

The GM in this case simply fails to grasp the fact that dungeons and dragons is a cooperative effort. Often, these game masters believe that being a dungeon master is "more important" than being a player. and that his authority supersedes the character's free will.

Then we have railroading by punishment.

The GM has a story, and the players will follow it, but if they ever try to deviate from the plot, they are going DOWN. They will never shy away from a TPK, and will even go out of their way to facilitate such an eventuality in the event the party makes a wrong decision, hoping that the players will just learn to stick to the straight line path he's created for them. Players still have free will, but wrong choices are quickly defeated. In many ways he's worse than the previous railroader, because his players have a high death rate, there is only a tenuous narrative connection between them and the quest.

there are other types, but i jhust realized it's 3 am, so ...zzzzz

 

[Nightfall]

And then there is also rail guides like Age of Worms.