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<blockquote data-quote="shurai" data-source="post: 2117645">One thing that bugs me about removing the monk is that doing so removes the only class that has all three good saves.&nbsp; Is there some non-core ability or feat that can change a character's save from the lower to the higher value?One could add in &quot;Improved&quot; versions of the +2 feats (Lightning Reflexes, etc) that gives, say, an additional +4 to the save.&nbsp; Did they do that already?The more I think about it, the more it seems that there isn't a good way to achieve &quot;monkishness&quot; with the other classes.&nbsp; Most of the classes gain too much magic.&nbsp; Barbarians are clearly a bad fit.&nbsp; Rogues are seemingly a good choice because they get lots of skills with a smallish hit die, although it's hard to justify granting Sneak Attack to a group of people who demand strict integrity.&nbsp; On the other hand, fighters seem like a bad fit too because they aren't skilled enough.To fix the lowered-skills problem I guess you could have people multiclass fighter/rogue and take the monkish feats that have been proposed.&nbsp; That would also do a little to fix the saves problem too.&nbsp; Here's how I guess it'd work out:* alternating d10/d6 hit die = monk d8* +1 / +3/4 BAB = slightly better BAB than core monk* decent fort / decent ref / poor will + will save feats = slightly worse than monk* +2 / +8 skill points/level = slightly better than monk* 1 bonus fighter feat / 4 levels or so = monkish special abilitiesAs far as the monk AC goes, I'd say that as long as they get a decent AC it doesn't really matter if it's by wearing armor or not; monks are intended to have worse armor classes than fighters anyway, I believe.-S</blockquote>

[QUOTE="shurai, post: 2117645"] One thing that bugs me about removing the monk is that doing so removes the only class that has all three good saves. Is there some non-core ability or feat that can change a character's save from the lower to the higher value? One could add in "Improved" versions of the +2 feats (Lightning Reflexes, etc) that gives, say, an additional +4 to the save. Did they do that already? The more I think about it, the more it seems that there isn't a good way to achieve "monkishness" with the other classes. Most of the classes gain too much magic. Barbarians are clearly a bad fit. Rogues are seemingly a good choice because they get lots of skills with a smallish hit die, although it's hard to justify granting Sneak Attack to a group of people who demand strict integrity. On the other hand, fighters seem like a bad fit too because they aren't skilled enough. To fix the lowered-skills problem I guess you could have people multiclass fighter/rogue and take the monkish feats that have been proposed. That would also do a little to fix the saves problem too. Here's how I guess it'd work out: * alternating d10/d6 hit die = monk d8 * +1 / +3/4 BAB = slightly better BAB than core monk * decent fort / decent ref / poor will + will save feats = slightly worse than monk * +2 / +8 skill points/level = slightly better than monk * 1 bonus fighter feat / 4 levels or so = monkish special abilities As far as the monk AC goes, I'd say that as long as they get a decent AC it doesn't really matter if it's by wearing armor or not; monks are intended to have worse armor classes than fighters anyway, I believe. -S [/QUOTE]

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