Randomization vs. Narrative Control: Different Approaches to Storytelling in TTRPGs

[the_rpg_gazette]

Random tables or narrative control - what makes a better TTRPG experience? OSR games embrace chaos with dice-driven storytelling, while FATE, PbtA, and Blades in the Dark give players more control. D&D 5e finds a middle ground, but are we losing the thrill of the unexpected?

In our latest article, we explore how different RPG systems handle randomness and narrative structure. Whether you love the surprises of procedural generation or prefer character-driven storytelling, there's something for everyone!

Read more and tell us: Do you prefer rolling the dice or shaping the story?

Randomization vs. Narrative Control: Different Approaches to Storytelling in TTRPGs

 

[payn]

I dont really think D&D5E is in between, I think the vagueness gives it pretension of narrative control. Though, whether it relies on random aspects or narrative control will rely more on the game master and player interest. One aspect that can really drive this is adventure material. Again, I think 5E is vague in this department and the published adventures give a few tools, but no real direction. Likely, a necessity of 5E ethos of being a game for "everybody" and thus needing to remain flexible. Pathfinder for example, often leans into its setting with both adventures and system mechanics.

This is likely why there are such strong OSR vs Neotrad arguments in 5E discussions.

 

[Theory of Games]

I set scenes for the players and they run with it, so "story-shaping" is where we live. We only roll dice when a character is attempting something difficult. IME it's good to have a good mix or rolling and roleplay.

Very good article

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Random tables or narrative control - what makes a better TTRPG experience? OSR games embrace chaos with dice-driven storytelling, while FATE, PbtA, and Blades in the Dark give players more control. D&D 5e finds a middle ground, but are we losing the thrill of the unexpected?

In our latest article, we explore how different RPG systems handle randomness and narrative structure. Whether you love the surprises of procedural generation or prefer character-driven storytelling, there's something for everyone!

Read more and tell us: Do you prefer rolling the dice or shaping the story?

Randomization vs. Narrative Control: Different Approaches to Storytelling in TTRPGs

Yeah, gonna also say that article is not really correct in its assumptions of there being a difference.
And gonna say is 100% dead wrong to say D&D is a mixed ground. Its absolutely 100% wrong to say D&D has any player agency = it has none. period.

As usual, there are some really big misunderstandings on what PBTA and FATE are. They are not "Narrative Control" games, they are "Player Agency" games. So let's talk about that...

First off = Tables and Randomization
These have nothing to do with or against or about Player Agency or Narrative Control when addressing players. Random tables are GM facing tools, and have nothing to do with players. They are a tool for a GM to create 'something' on the spot. Maybe its a confrontation, maybe its a treasure found, maybe its a NPC initial disposition. PBTA can use these, and it changes nothing. OSR and D&D can not use these, and they work fine too. Neither D&D nor OSR use a table roll to determine an entire combat from beginning to ending. Nor do they use a table to determine the result of a long overland adventure, from start to finish. They are there to help the GM determine what to insert for a given moment. Enter area? Roll random encounter. Leave town? Roll random encounter. Get critical hit? roll random gore damage. Etc etc. Anything can use these. They have no impact on player agency.

With that said...

All Tequila is Mezcal, not all Mezcal is Tequila.
Not all Narrative Control is Player Agency, all Player Agency is Narrative Control. PBTA, FATE, FiTD are Player Agency games with rules for limiting the GM too.. that's a large difference.

What that means is = games like OSR and D&D = Do not care what the player says. They do not care what the player character's current position is. In these games, when the player makes a roll, succeed or fail = it is always 100% rules tell exact result, or GM fiat as to how to resolve that roll.

- In the case of rules resolve, such as swing a sword. You hit, you hit and roll damage. You miss, you miss and do nothing. Nobody can change that outcome in D&D or OSR as per rules.

- In the case of GM fiat resolve, when you roll. You get success, the GM gets to decide what success means. And when you fail, the GM gets to decide what failure means. D&D and OSR have no rules to allow otherwise.

In PBTA or FitD the above is simply not allowed or even resolved that way. And no charts or tables would change that.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It's funny how differing definitions for terms leads to opposite conclusions.

 

[Blue]

Random tables or narrative control - what makes a better TTRPG experience? OSR games embrace chaos with dice-driven storytelling, while FATE, PbtA, and Blades in the Dark give players more control. D&D 5e finds a middle ground, but are we losing the thrill of the unexpected?

Sorry, strongly disagree that D&D 5e is a middle ground. This isn't a single axis issue at all.

One can say a difference in narrative control between Story Now games and (neo)traditional DM'd games like D&D is that while in both the DM creates the context, such as fronts in Apocalypse World or the setting in D&D, in D&D you have the DM more likely presenting hook(s) that the players follow. Not exclusively, but generally. While in Story Now you have the players deciding what part of the world they interact with and the DM reacting to that.

Actually, because it's the DM reacting, especially with system where the randomness of the dice determine complications like in PbtA or FitD games, 5e D&D is significantly further away from randomness influencing the plot. I can't see how someone who understands both types wouldn't see that.

Read more and tell us: Do you prefer rolling the dice or shaping the story?

Story happens when the characters interact with the context. In all RPGs there are elements of randomness to that. And elements of shaping the story for players, and usually also the GM.

 

[Blue]

Yeah, gonna also say that article is not really correct in its assumptions of there being a difference.
And gonna say is 100% dead wrong to say D&D is a mixed ground. Its absolutely 100% wrong to say D&D has any player agency = it has none. period.

As usual, there are some really big misunderstandings on what PBTA and FATE are. They are not "Narrative Control" games, they are "Player Agency" games. So let's talk about that...

First off = Tables and Randomization
These have nothing to do with or against or about Player Agency or Narrative Control when addressing players. Random tables are GM facing tools, and have nothing to do with players. They are a tool for a GM to create 'something' on the spot. Maybe its a confrontation, maybe its a treasure found, maybe its a NPC initial disposition. PBTA can use these, and it changes nothing. OSR and D&D can not use these, and they work fine too. Neither D&D nor OSR use a table roll to determine an entire combat from beginning to ending. Nor do they use a table to determine the result of a long overland adventure, from start to finish. They are there to help the GM determine what to insert for a given moment. Enter area? Roll random encounter. Leave town? Roll random encounter. Get critical hit? roll random gore damage. Etc etc. Anything can use these. They have no impact on player agency.

With that said...

All Tequila is Mezcal, not all Mezcal is Tequila.
Not all Narrative Control is Player Agency, all Player Agency is Narrative Control. PBTA, FATE, FiTD are Player Agency games with rules for limiting the GM too.. that's a large difference.

What that means is = games like OSR and D&D = Do not care what the player says. They do not care what the player character's current position is. In these games, when the player makes a roll, succeed or fail = it is always 100% rules tell exact result, or GM fiat as to how to resolve that roll.

- In the case of rules resolve, such as swing a sword. You hit, you hit and roll damage. You miss, you miss and do nothing. Nobody can change that outcome in D&D or OSR as per rules.

- In the case of GM fiat resolve, when you roll. You get success, the GM gets to decide what success means. And when you fail, the GM gets to decide what failure means. D&D and OSR have no rules to allow otherwise.

In PBTA or FitD the above is simply not allowed or even resolved that way. And no charts or tables would change that.

Wow, parts of what you say I strongly agree with, and parts I think are dead wrong. Very polarizing post for me.

I agree with basically everything you say except about a complete lack of player agency in D&D type games. Your statements about charts being GM-facing tools and player agency games all hit well, I'm nodding as I'm reading.

But the part about player agency in D&D seems to assume that it can only come from mechanical interaction. Yes, PbtA, FitD and other games have mechanical support for story direction baked in their uncertainty resolution system, which D&D and like games do not have. But that ignores all of the player agency that aren't a part of that. It's common to find DMs improvising as players take a session in directions the DM never expected, a clear and simple sign that there is no lack of player agency in those games. It's just one that's rule supported but not mechanically supported.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Wow, parts of what you say I strongly agree with, and parts I think are dead wrong. Very polarizing post for me.

I agree with basically everything you say except about a complete lack of player agency in D&D type games. Your statements about charts being GM-facing tools and player agency games all hit well, I'm nodding as I'm reading.

But the part about player agency in D&D seems to assume that it can only come from mechanical interaction. Yes, PbtA, FitD and other games have mechanical support for story direction baked in their uncertainty resolution system, which D&D and like games do not have. But that ignores all of the player agency that aren't a part of that. It's common to find DMs improvising as players take a session in directions the DM never expected, a clear and simple sign that there is no lack of player agency in those games. It's just one that's rule supported but not mechanically supported.

Yeah, you are right, I am mostly talking mechanics out of the box.

With that said... what you are describing imho, is a cool person as a GM = not a feature of D&D or OSR. Those players have to hope that their GM is nice enough to go with whatever they are asking of the game when the rules are not helping or there are no guidelines for rulings. (so...No rules backup players or limit GM)

I am saying that very thing - guidelines and rules when characters interact - is a functional feature of something like PBTA. (So.. All rules backup players and limit GM.)

My post, while spicy I admit, is trying to acknowledge that systems have core function and tenants and rules that lead to typical play.
And I am in no way addressing GM or players ignoring rules, taking rulings in some ideal direction, or just talking their way through some part of a story.


And mostly I am saying the OP thoughts on Randomization has nothing to do with PBTA or such systems at all... the rest is just side comments...

 

[pemerton]

And mostly I am saying the OP thoughts on Randomization has nothing to do with PBTA or such systems at all... the rest is just side comments...

I just skimmed the blog - it doesn't look very accurate to me.

For instance, it groups Fate and Apocalypse World, and then groups D&D 5e and Burning Wheel. But BW and AW have more in common, as RPG systems, than either has in common with Fate.

 

[Campbell]

So, flashbacks in Blades do not work the way the author mentioned. It's not spend stress => get result. All a flashback allows you to do is declare an action your character previously took to prepare for this moment. You still have to make whatever roll would be required and cannot use it to override previous results.