Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Ranged Rogues. Tasha's Changed My Mind
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8236160" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>I am basing the fact that people who wrote 5e are aware of 3e and 4e D&D when they wrote it.</p><p></p><p>There are similar abilities that read "on your turn", like barbarian reckless attack. It doesn't work on reaction attacks. Meanwhile, the Rogue is worded to match exactly the changes they made in 4e to Rogues to allow them to use sneak attack on opportunity attacks. When they did that change, as an errata, they explicitly stated basically "this is because we thought it felt better if Rogues where good at sticking you with a shiv if you give them an opportunity".</p><p></p><p>They did an <strong>intentional</strong> change that matches this wording in the years immediately before 5e. They released 5e, aware of how 4e worked. They kept that change, and didn't match the very similar barbarian ability wording that excludes it.</p><p></p><p>I mean "once on your turn" would make it so that Rogues couldn't sneak attack on reactions. One and done. Or even "once per round" works.</p><p></p><p>And I'm covering intention. You don't need to understand the intention to read the rule: the plain language of "a turn", as in when a monster goes that is a different turn, is used throughout 5e. Your turn ends, your turn starts, and your turn does not extend over the entire round.</p><p></p><p>Context does inform intention. I don't imply that all DMs must understand the intention in order to understand what the rule says (that you can do it once per turn), I am arguing that this wasn't an accident of wording by the designers. The fact that a random DM might not be aware of the history is irrelevant to what the history tell us the actual intention of the designers was here.</p><p></p><p>Feel free to argue that it is <strong>reasonable</strong> for a DM to change that rule, thinking that was the intention of the designers for rogues not to be able to sneak attack on a reaction. That is a very different argument than "the designers never intended for a rogue to be able to use sneak attack on a reaction, that wording was accidental". It is very <em>reasonable</em> for the DM to misunderstand the wording and misread the intention of that rule, I will admit.</p><p></p><p>It is even reasonable for the DM to decide that off-turn sneak attack makes the Rogue too good at fighting, and simply ban it.</p><p></p><p>It is even reasonable for the DM to decide that "real reactions" doing off-turn sneak attack is ok, but "fake reactions" like that haste trick don't; that the readied action "transports part of your turn" there, while a normal reaction doesn't.</p><p></p><p>Of course, in a game with any other characters doing charop, this reaction-sneak-attack trick is one of the few ways for a rogue to "keep up" optimization wise (that, booming blade, and MC crit fishing efforts are the 3 ways I know of).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8236160, member: 72555"] I am basing the fact that people who wrote 5e are aware of 3e and 4e D&D when they wrote it. There are similar abilities that read "on your turn", like barbarian reckless attack. It doesn't work on reaction attacks. Meanwhile, the Rogue is worded to match exactly the changes they made in 4e to Rogues to allow them to use sneak attack on opportunity attacks. When they did that change, as an errata, they explicitly stated basically "this is because we thought it felt better if Rogues where good at sticking you with a shiv if you give them an opportunity". They did an [B]intentional[/B] change that matches this wording in the years immediately before 5e. They released 5e, aware of how 4e worked. They kept that change, and didn't match the very similar barbarian ability wording that excludes it. I mean "once on your turn" would make it so that Rogues couldn't sneak attack on reactions. One and done. Or even "once per round" works. And I'm covering intention. You don't need to understand the intention to read the rule: the plain language of "a turn", as in when a monster goes that is a different turn, is used throughout 5e. Your turn ends, your turn starts, and your turn does not extend over the entire round. Context does inform intention. I don't imply that all DMs must understand the intention in order to understand what the rule says (that you can do it once per turn), I am arguing that this wasn't an accident of wording by the designers. The fact that a random DM might not be aware of the history is irrelevant to what the history tell us the actual intention of the designers was here. Feel free to argue that it is [B]reasonable[/B] for a DM to change that rule, thinking that was the intention of the designers for rogues not to be able to sneak attack on a reaction. That is a very different argument than "the designers never intended for a rogue to be able to use sneak attack on a reaction, that wording was accidental". It is very [I]reasonable[/I] for the DM to misunderstand the wording and misread the intention of that rule, I will admit. It is even reasonable for the DM to decide that off-turn sneak attack makes the Rogue too good at fighting, and simply ban it. It is even reasonable for the DM to decide that "real reactions" doing off-turn sneak attack is ok, but "fake reactions" like that haste trick don't; that the readied action "transports part of your turn" there, while a normal reaction doesn't. Of course, in a game with any other characters doing charop, this reaction-sneak-attack trick is one of the few ways for a rogue to "keep up" optimization wise (that, booming blade, and MC crit fishing efforts are the 3 ways I know of). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Ranged Rogues. Tasha's Changed My Mind
Top