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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 9406218" data-attributes="member: 6801228">You are making this up whole cloth with no evidence from the text of the rules, which shows literally the exact opposite.You keep saying that they have a +2 to their check, but that doesn't seem to mean what you think it means. Let us look at the statblock for a Spy. They actually have a lot of skills, do you consider the standard spy to be the absolute worst spy who can call themselves a spy because they only have a +2 proficiency in Deception, Insight, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand and Stealth? I will acknowledge they have expertise in Investigation and Perception, but Lying and Sleight of Hand are rather key skills for the archetype of a spy. Or the noble with the +2 prof in Deception, Insight and Persuasion? Or the Druid with the same in Nature, MEdicine or Perception? Cult Fanatic who is the leader of a cult has a +2 prof in Deception, Persuasion and Religion. To me it simply does not follow from the text that you MUST absolutely have a +4 proficiency from Expertise to be considered a standard skilled laborer. Because you aren't rolling, and even if you are, you can use the take 10 and take 20 rules. I mean, consider, a character with proficiency in Blacksmith's tools is part of the blacksmith's guild if they take the Guild Artisan background. You don't get to be a full member who pays dues by being a crap artisan who is barely more than an apprentice. You start paying dues after your apprenticeship is over and you are a blacksmith. And this argument always leads to needing Super Expertise for people who are actually highly skilled experts, because people insist that they will need three or four times the bonus of a person with "mere" proficiency. Meanwhile, the game only has two levels. Proficient. Expert. That's it.</blockquote>

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