Ranger Feats

[Darklone]

Another example. If Manyshot would be an attack action, as some here said, you could end up with an lvl16 archer with Rapid Shot and Hasted (6 Attacks) who shoots how many? 4 arrows with each attack???

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

Which is the difference left between shooting with Manyshot and throwing Skuriken?

You mean aside from the fact that you don't throw more than one shuriken per attack any more?

The Action table in the SRD could have been more clear, it seems to me that you could for example use Grapple with Spring Attack, but not Feint for example.

Well, now, that's a really interesting one

If you'd said "Trip" or "Disarm", I'd have agreed with you completely.

But Grapple, while being used as part of the Attack Action and therefore theoretically eligible for Spring Attack, suffers from a slight rules oddity under 3.5.

3.5 Spring Attack requires you to move at least 5' after your attack.

If you successfully start a grapple, you can't move after your attack (since moving while grappling requires another grapple check, and you can't make two without a full attack action).

Therefore, if your grapple is successful, then you can't Spring Attack, which means you would have provoked an AoO on your way in.

Because you can't retroactively incur an AoO, as a DM I'd allow Spring Attack with a melee attack, trip, or disarm, but as a special case, I wouldn't allow it with a grapple.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Another example. If Manyshot would be an attack action, as some here said, you could end up with an lvl16 archer with Rapid Shot and Hasted (6 Attacks) who shoots how many? 4 arrows with each attack???

Ok, maybe I don't understand Manyshot at all...

Hasted = 1 extra attack

So in his turn, he could do 4 attacks as normal full-attack routine (and couldn't manyshot them) + 1 attack from haste. If he COULD use Manyshot as the haste extra attack, with 4 arrows, he would be shooting 9 arrows in a round, at +14/+14/+9/+4/-1 and +6(4 arrows). Without Manyshot, the extra attack would just be a single arrow at +14, right?

Doesn't seem a big deal, good bonus of +3d8 (Longbow) for a -8 on attack, at the expense of a feat.

A melee fighter with 2-handed weapon at the expense of a feat (Power Attack) could take a -8 on attack for a +16 damage in the case of a single attack.
Ok, he would have to take -8/+16 on all the attacks for the round, for better or worse, which would lead to +8/+3/-2/-7 and +8 (compared to the archer without Rapid Shot +16/+11/+6/+1 and +8).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ok, maybe I don't understand Manyshot at all...

He's pointing to the fact that if you allow Manyshot in place of an ranged attack, instead of the standard action it is defined as, then the Hasted Ranger could make four iterative Manyshots, plus a Manyshot from the Rapid Shot feat, plus a Manyshot from Haste, for 24 arrows in one round.

Fortunately, that's not how the feat works. You can fire four arrows with Manyshot and take a Move action, or you can fire six arrows with the Full Attack Action, Rapid Shot, Haste, and move 5'.

Not combinations thereof.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

He's pointing to the fact that if you allow Manyshot in place of an ranged attack, instead of the standard action it is defined as, then the Hasted Ranger could make four iterative Manyshots, plus a Manyshot from the Rapid Shot feat, plus a Manyshot from Haste, for 24 arrows in one round.

Fortunately, that's not how the feat works

That was the only thing clear to me... that you don't manyshot at each attach of a full-attack routine

Still I don't think it would have been bad if you could use MS as a single attack standard action. Haste was nerfed for spells only, as far as I know...

 

[Darklone]

I wouldn't consider Manyshot in combination with Shot on the Run broken either... and will probably houserule it.

It's just not what the rules say.

Hmm... 24 arrows per round for my archer... That makes him NEARLY as strong as he used to be in 3rd edition!!!

 

[krunchyfrogg]

Krunchyfrogg? Wildelves where ?

Dungeon Master's Guide.

In 3.0, they had a -2 CHA in addition to the other stat adjustments, but it's gone now.

 

[Ysgarran]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

OK, before I was so rudely interrupted by the power outage I had a very long response typed in. Power went out before I could hit 'Submit Reply'. Sigh.

Anyways, I think I understand your point but I think it is still a very poorly worded feat. I'm going to word the feat according to the intent that you defined. (let me know if I get this wrong).
"When using the standard attack action, that character may take a single attack with a ranged weapon in the middle of a move. You can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

My reading of the feat says something like this:
"When the character is taking a move action that character may take a standard attack action with a ranged weapon in the middle of a move. You can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

Does this capture the different intrepretations of the feat?

The 'attack option' is clearly defined as a standard action. (According to the Table that defines the different kinds of options).

The real question is whether the phrase: "When using the attack action with a ranged weapon" applies to the 'kind of attack' the user takes in the middle of the move or whether the phrase applies to the feat 'shot on the move' itself.

Having written it down in that fashion I'm now thinking that you are correct and my original reading was wrong.

later,
Ysgarran.

What? The attack action is defined in the actions section of the PHB.

Another example: The Full Attack action is a full round action where you potentially make one or more attack rolls. The Charge action is a full round action where you potentially make an attack roll.

As I understand it, your contention is that the only thing that's important there is the distinction between "full round action" and "standard" or "frree" or "move" action. Since Full Attack and Charge are both full round actions, then when something says "While taking the Full Attack Action", they must be including Charge, right? It's the obvious consequence - the action type isn't clearly spelled out, after all.

So, with Whirlwind Attack, I can attack each creature within reach while taking the Full Attack Action. Since your logic agrees that it includes charging, I can move twice my speed and then make one attack on each creature in reach with a +2 bonus and a -2 penalty to AC. I had to give up my regular Charge attack to do it, but WWA says nothing about giving up my movement!

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... or, I could accept that there is more distinction between actions than just full round, standard, move, and free. The Full Attack Action is a full round action, and the Charge Action is a full round action, but that doesn't mean that a Charge is the Full Attack Action.

The Attack Action is a standard action, and Manyshot is a standard action, but using Manyshot is not the Attack Action.

-Hyp.