Ranger Feats

[Zaruthustran]

Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

It's a tricky thing, thanks to inconsistent terms. Here're the relevant quotes:

SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed.

So, this says that Shot on the Run only works when you use the attack action (with a ranged weapon).

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet.

And this says that Manyshot is a standard action.

So since Shot on the Run requires an attack action and Manyshot is a standard action, Manyshot does not work with Shot on the Run.

Seems clear, right?

But wait! There's more!

In 3.5, there is no such thing as an "attack action"!

There are four types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, and free actions.

Since a standard action is defined as

Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.

I would say that Shot on the Run works with Manyshot. Shot on the Run is simply poorly written. I think it should read:

"SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When taking a standard action to attack with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

Bonus: there's a chart listing a bunch of example "Standard Actions". "Attack" is the first thing that appears on that chart.

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

In 3.5, there is no such thing as an "attack action"!

Of course there is.

As you point out, under the list of Standard Actions, there appears "Attack". That's the Attack Action. "Cast a Spell" is the Cast a Spell Action.

Under Full Round Actions, there appear "Charge" and "Withdraw". Those are the Charge Action and Withdraw Action respectively.

Standard, Full-Round, Free, and Move are action types. Attack, Charge, Withdraw, and Cast a Spell are individual actions.

Shot on the Run works with the Attack (standard) Action; it does not work with the Manyshot (standard) Action.

-Hyp.

 

[krunchyfrogg]

I remember that book pretty vaguely.. was he the guy who would shout "Leah!" as his battle cry?

Yeah, that's the guy.

I like your idea of taking Dodge and Mobility 1st. If you abandon that idea, may I suggest Wood Elf as a race? They get all the standard Elf abilities (very useful for a ranger), ranger is their favored class, and their stat adjustments are as follows: +2 STR, +2 DEX, -2 CON, -2 INT. Sure, the CON hurts, but even with the INT penalty, you're getting more skills than a 3.0 ranger, and the bonus to STR and DEX speaks for itself.

ON EDIT: I just saw your response in the D&D Rules forum to my thread about Wild Elves. Nevermind.

 

[Darklone]

So according to your logic Darklone, shot on the run can be used with any attack action (full or standard).

A full attack action is NOT the attack action as others elaborated.

Krunchyfrogg? Wildelves where ?

 

[Li Shenron]

My opinion is that Manyshot is just the same as a single ranged attack: requires one roll, applies precision-based damage on the whole result (and not on every single arrow), and requires a standard action. I see no conflict with the use of Shot on the Run.

edit: Shot on the Run could be used with the attack part of Ray of Frost, if you could cast the spell beforehand and holod the charge, but I am not sure yet if you can hold the charge at all with a ray...

 

[Ysgarran]

Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

So where in the SRD does it state that the hierarchy of actions should be:
Attack (standard) Action and Manyshot (standard) Action
instead of
Standard (Attack) Action and Standard (Manyshot) Action?

My natural inclination is to order things according to the four types of actions (standard, move, full-round and free actions) and NOT create specialized super categories on top of those four types of actions or to create categories outside of those four types. Rules should be simple, clear, clean and precise.

This is exactly the kind of ambiguity that should have been cleared up in 3.5 instead of letting it linger on. "Shot on the run' IS poorly written. The attack action type should be clearly spelled out in the benefit section.
Unless you can simplify your argument I have to go with the "When taking a standard action to attack with a ranged weapon" interpretation.

Ysgarran.

Of course there is.
As you point out, under the list of Standard Actions, there appears "Attack". That's the Attack Action. "Cast a Spell" is the Cast a Spell Action.

Under Full Round Actions, there appear "Charge" and "Withdraw". Those are the Charge Action and Withdraw Action respectively.

Standard, Full-Round, Free, and Move are action types. Attack, Charge, Withdraw, and Cast a Spell are individual actions.

Shot on the Run works with the Attack (standard) Action; it does not work with the Manyshot (standard) Action.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

The attack action type should be clearly spelled out in the benefit section.

What? The attack action is defined in the actions section of the PHB.

Another example: The Full Attack action is a full round action where you potentially make one or more attack rolls. The Charge action is a full round action where you potentially make an attack roll.

As I understand it, your contention is that the only thing that's important there is the distinction between "full round action" and "standard" or "frree" or "move" action. Since Full Attack and Charge are both full round actions, then when something says "While taking the Full Attack Action", they must be including Charge, right? It's the obvious consequence - the action type isn't clearly spelled out, after all.

So, with Whirlwind Attack, I can attack each creature within reach while taking the Full Attack Action. Since your logic agrees that it includes charging, I can move twice my speed and then make one attack on each creature in reach with a +2 bonus and a -2 penalty to AC. I had to give up my regular Charge attack to do it, but WWA says nothing about giving up my movement!

-----

... or, I could accept that there is more distinction between actions than just full round, standard, move, and free. The Full Attack Action is a full round action, and the Charge Action is a full round action, but that doesn't mean that a Charge is the Full Attack Action.

The Attack Action is a standard action, and Manyshot is a standard action, but using Manyshot is not the Attack Action.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

The Attack Action is a standard action, and Manyshot is a standard action, but using Manyshot is not the Attack Action.

For curiosity, is there a "Manyshot" entry in the PHB table about standard actions?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

For curiosity, is there a "Manyshot" entry in the PHB table about standard actions?

It comes under "Use Feat", which tells you to see the feat text to find out how it works. The feat text says it's a standard action.

Not "When taking the attack action, you may...", but "As a standard action...".

And Andy Collins has repeatedly stated that since Manyshot is a standard action in its own right, not the attack action, it cannot be used with Shot on the Run.

Like here.

-Hyp.

 

[Li Shenron]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Manyshot works with Shot on the Run

And Andy Collins has repeatedly stated that since Manyshot is a standard action in its own right, not the attack action, it cannot be used with Shot on the Run.

Like here.

-Hyp.

Well, if the author says so, he can't be wrong.

Which is the difference left between shooting with Manyshot and throwing Skuriken?

The Action table in the SRD could have been more clear, it seems to me that you could for example use Grapple with Spring Attack, but not Feint for example.