Ranger > Warlock

[Incenjucar]

It'll be interesting when they come out with WoW d20 4E, since WoW only ever seemed to give knockback to monsters.

--

I think the balance with energy defenses being more common is that there are also energy weaknesses, which I doubt we'll see happen to weapon damage.

I'm still in love with the fact that there's a feat that gives targets an energy weakness.

 

[loisel]

I breezed through the thread, but are rangers flying, teleporting,

Rangers are very mobile, but the flavor is different of course. I think if you compare mobility between the classes, it's a wash: rangers can move much further (lots of abilities that increase speed), while locks can teleport a bit.

becoming invisible,

Yes, see "Forest Ghost", a daily that lasts until the end of the encounter.

becoming insubstantial

Rangers don't turn insubstantial. I think their equivalent is the large pile of damage avoidance util powers they have.

giving enemies vulnerability to damage

Edit: I see what you're talking about. Strand of fate, level 17, 1d8+cha damage, vulnerability 10 to all attacks until end of your next turn. If everybody gangs up on this one guy, you hit and everybody hits (say 5 hits total), you'll get about 68 damage max. You'd have to have a high cha character, i.e., not the lock I made. My ranger 20 character I made, with triple shot (also encounter 17) will max out at 69 damage, but you don't depend on everyone else ganging up on the victim.

I really think that for any aspect you think of, it's either a wash, or the ranger wins.

 

[chaotix42]

double post

 

[chaotix42]

Rangers are very mobile, but the flavor is different of course. I think if you compare mobility between the classes, it's a wash: rangers can move much further (lots of abilities that increase speed), while locks can teleport a bit.

And fly, for what it counts.

Yes, see "Forest Ghost", a daily that lasts until the end of the encounter.

Yes, a single Daily power that makes you invisible when it isn't your turn as long as you have cover or concealment. The warlock has numerous Encounter and Daily powers that grant invisibility.

That would be entirely pointless, since they deal untyped damage, which as was mentioned elsewhere in the thread is much superior to typed damage.

Actually the power I was thinking of was a warlock Encounter power called Strand of Fate that inflicts vulnerability 10 to all attacks until the end of your next turn. Rangers don't deal untyped damage, they deal weapon damage, which is most certainly a type.

Looking through the warlock's powers, they have a decent amount of choices that actually deal untyped damage. Plus, with their typed damage they can take advantage of natural vulnerabilities.

I really think that for any aspect you think of, it's either a wash, or the ranger wins.

I still disagree.

 

[Incenjucar]

Actually the power I was thinking of was a warlock Encounter power called Strand of Fate that inflicts vulnerability 10 to all attacks until the end of your next turn. Rangers don't deal untyped damage, they deal weapon damage, which is most certainly a type.

This would be awesome with a Warlord in the party.

Is Feather Me Yon Oaf still in?

 

[chaotix42]

Edit: I see what you're talking about. Strand of fate, level 17, 1d8+cha damage, vulnerability 10 to all attacks until end of your next turn. If everybody gangs up on this one guy, you hit and everybody hits (say 5 hits total), you'll get about 68 damage max. You'd have to have a high cha character, i.e., not the lock I made. My ranger 20 character I made, with triple shot (also encounter 17) will max out at 69 damage, but you don't depend on everyone else ganging up on the victim.

Well if everyone spends some action points you can do even more damage!

I'm just not willing to look at any of the PCs in a vacuum. I see lots of useful stuff in each character, and I think I'm going to wait until I start DMing a game before I believe that Class A > Class B.

This would be awesome with a Warlord in the party.

Is Feather Me Yon Oaf still in?

Dunno, is that the one that grants everyone free ranged attacks? Because the warlord has a lot of options that grant allies all sorts of extra attacks, even beyond basic attacks.

 

[Incenjucar]

Well if everyone spends some action points you can do even more damage!

I'm just not willing to look at any of the PCs in a vacuum. I see lots of useful stuff in each character, and I think I'm going to wait until I start DMing a game before I believe that Class A > Class B.

Feather Me Yon Oaf+Dragonborn Breath+Action Point...

--

Yeah. I'm just using it as an example since I don't have the books early.

Damage vulnerability is a wonderful power.

--

Really, to put it in WoW terms, this is like complaining about Shadow Bolt without considering Succubus and Fear.

 

[loisel]

Yeah, I think if you use exactly the right power, and everybody in the party acts according to your plan, and they all use an action point, and they burn a couple of dailies each...

Then there are some power combinations where the warlock's net damage is competitive with the ranger's.

Woo.

 

[chaotix42]

Yup. It's certainly a corner case, but it's nice. The power is even better if you're a Star Pact warlock - the vulnerability goes up to 10 + Int mod!

 

[Incenjucar]

Dude, that's what 4E combat is ABOUT.