Rangers and Druids without animal companions

[ZuulMoG]

Pretty good ideas - I like the idea of giving rangers sneak attacks, but what kind of sneak attack should they get for losing the animal companion? <SNIP> Still, what kind of SNA progression should he have? Rogue-like or scout-like or still different?

Well, how about (level-4)/2 as a rogue, with same conditions rewuired, IE denied Dex bonus. (Incidentally, Drizzt is almost certainly a ranger of this persuasion, no animal companion, no spells, slaughters suprised/flatfooted foes with ease.)

 

[was]

You could grant them an increase in speed. Say about 10' or so. I think that I saw that on a ranger variant somewhere called 'stag's swiftness' or something similar.

 

[Roman]

Well, how about (level-4)/2 as a rogue, with same conditions rewuired, IE denied Dex bonus. (Incidentally, Drizzt is almost certainly a ranger of this persuasion, no animal companion, no spells, slaughters suprised/flatfooted foes with ease.)

I see, so a rogue-like sneak attack, but delayed 4 levels (and hence not going as high - max. at 20th level: 8d6 instead of 10d6). Hmm, I still think it is too powerful for losing only an animal companion. I do think, however, that sneak attack-like ability is indeed the right way to go, after all it does fit the flavour and just like an animal companion it scales with level. How about normal rogue sneak attack, but the condition being that the ranger's position has to be unknown. This means that he will usually only get to sneak attack when he lays an ambush (and even then only at the beginning). Another benefit of this would be that it would be somewhat differentiated from the rogue sneak attack (I like uniqueness/differentiation - some people might disagree on that though). I can foresee one problem though - a combination of an arcane caster with improved invisibility and a ranger with this type of sneak attack would be too devastating unless opponents have smell or other abilities to locate the ranger and thus neutralize his SNA, but not all of them do. On the other hand, this probably applies to rogue as well, so perhaps it is not as bad as it sounds.

 

[Roman]

Also, if sneak attack for rangers - what for druids? After all, druidic animal companions are substantially more powerful than ranger ones.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I see, so a rogue-like sneak attack, but delayed 4 levels (and hence not going as high - max. at 20th level: 8d6 instead of 10d6).

No his sneak attack is rogue -4/2 ie 20th ranger attacks as 8th lvl thief (4d6 sna)
about the same as 1d6 per 5 levels.

How about normal rogue sneak attack, but the condition being that the ranger's position has to be unknown.

Or just use the ninja requirement - opponent must be flatfooted.

 

[ZuulMoG]

Evilhafling has it right. (Level -4)/2 = equivalent rogue level for Sneak Attack. That makes 4d6 the max bonus for a 20th level ranger (although since it's level-based, epic levels of ranger (or any class with Favored Enemy, that would stack) would up this number).

 

[ZuulMoG]

Also, if sneak attack for rangers - what for druids? After all, druidic animal companions are substantially more powerful than ranger ones.

The fast and easy answer is more Wild Shapes per day, or better Wild Shapes faster. Seems to me that it is also the answer most in keeping with the druid in D&D. Other legitimate substituions might be Wholeness of Body or Lay on Hands (but improved), healing is an area where the druid is inexplicably weak.

 

[Roman]

Evilhafling has it right. (Level -4)/2 = equivalent rogue level for Sneak Attack. That makes 4d6 the max bonus for a 20th level ranger (although since it's level-based, epic levels of ranger (or any class with Favored Enemy, that would stack) would up this number).

I see - I got 8d6 because of my interpretation - the way I interpreted it was that sneak attack d6 = (level -4)/2 which at 20th level would be 8d6, while of course, it instead means 8th level rogue equivalent - which is 4d6. That is much more sensible in terms of power level than how I interpreted it and would probably make a good replacement for the animal companion power-wise, while keeping with the spirit of the ranger class.

 

[Roman]

The fast and easy answer is more Wild Shapes per day, or better Wild Shapes faster. Seems to me that it is also the answer most in keeping with the druid in D&D. Other legitimate substituions might be Wholeness of Body or Lay on Hands (but improved), healing is an area where the druid is inexplicably weak.

Good ideas - doing something with Wild Shape might be the way to go. Perhaps expanding the use of Wild Shape in interesting ways - how about allowing the Druid to Wild Shape into partial forms of animals - for example retain the human body but gain eagle wings (yes, yes, eagle wings are not powerful enough to carry a human - it is just an example) - of course it would have to be limited in some manner because otherwise it would fast get out of hand. Any ideas as to how to limit it?

 

[ZuulMoG]

Good ideas - doing something with Wild Shape might be the way to go. Perhaps expanding the use of Wild Shape in interesting ways - how about allowing the Druid to Wild Shape into partial forms of animals - for example retain the human body but gain eagle wings (yes, yes, eagle wings are not powerful enough to carry a human - it is just an example) - of course it would have to be limited in some manner because otherwise it would fast get out of hand. Any ideas as to how to limit it?

Yes.

To wit--

1st Wild Shape 1/day, size Medium only.
2nd 2/day
3rd Size Small
5th 3/day
7th Large
8th 4/day
10th Tiny
11+ as listed