Rangers: Leave them alone!?

Steverooo

First Post
I have to agree with Zarathrustran, on this one. It has seemed to me, since the pre-skill AD&D 1e days, that TSR/WotC didn't know what a Ranger WAS, let alone what they DID. Comparing the original Ranger (Dragon 25 or so), to 1e, 2e, and 3e has been to watch them get chopped down continuously.

I always used to ask confused 1e GMs: "If Fighters fight, Thieves thieve, and Magic Users use magic, what is it Rangers do?" Nowadays, of course, Fighters still fight, but Rogues and Bards thieve, and Wizards and Sorcerers use magic, but the answer that I was looking for was "Rangers range!"

So what is Ranging, and what is it that Rangers do? Aragorn described himself as "a hunter of the servants of the enemy" (Sauron). These were the Orcs, goblins, Uruk-Hai, Trolls, etc. Thus, the bonuses vs. "Giant-Class Creatures" in 1e, and the "Favoured Enemies" of 2e and 3e. To range, however, means to travel. Thus, Rangers are folks who travel about, and should have skills reflecting this.

1e also described them as being (From "The Ranger", page 24 of the AD&D 1e Players Handbook): "Rangers are a sub-class of fighter who are adept at woodcraft, tracking, scouting, and infiltration and spying." Thus, we have skills relating to tracking, hunting (fighting/Base Attack Bonuses, weapons proficiencies), finding food/water, finding/making shelter, making (mechanically) simple weapons and equipment, moving about from place to place (especially in the wild), escape and evasion, perceiving things, setting and disarming traps, and skills which permit or enhance the ability to infiltrate and spy upon the enemy.

In 3e, Stealth skills are Hide and Move Silently. Perception includes Listen, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. Survival and Woodslore are basically taken up by Wilderness Lore. Infiltration skills are (as yet) unincorporated into the Ranger class. Spying skills include Hide and Move Silently. Tracking and some aspects of Hunting (see above) the Ranger already has. Trapping he has part of (Search allows detection of DC 20 or lower traps, but not more complex nor magical ones). (S)he does not have the ability to set or disarm traps, however. Rangers should be able to use bear/tiger traps, crossbow traps, deadfalls, nets, pits, snares, spikes, etc. A simple note saying they can set these would be sufficient. Some rules for them, as well as Rogues and others, would be needed for determining DCs for success. Disable Device should be added to the skill list to cover disarming.

Infiltration and spying skills should include Bluff and Sense Motive (both of which gain bonuses when used against Favored Enemies, oddly enough, even though they are Cross Class Skills, for the Ranger). Disguise is another obvious addition (and Bluff, the single best Synergy Skill, gives a bonus, if the Ranger has 5+ Ranks). Read Lips should also be opened up to ALL Classes as a Cross-Class Skill (pity the poor Druid who goes deaf!), as it was when it was introduced in the 2e book, "The Complete Thief". It should be added as a Class Skill for 3e Rangers, as should Languages (especially for Favored Enemies). This is for three reasons: 1) Those who travel a lot will learn to speak additional languages more easily, and more often, by necessity, 2) Bards are the only class with Languages as a Class skill, and 3) It fits in with the Spying aspect, as a Ranger who can't understand the enemy can't very well spy on them! Speaking the languages of Favoured Enemies could even be granted as a freebie, to make Rangers a bit less front-loaded.

(Speaking of Favored Enemies, by the way, I am all for chucking the current system, which is backwards, and replacing it with something more akin to the 1e version. Having to be +1 vs. something (say, Goblinoids) at 1rst level, and then +5 at 20th is pretty dumb, as Goblinoids are fairly rare at 20th level. Likewise, starting out with +1 vs. Dragons at 1rst level so you can be +5 vs. them at 20th level is also kinda odd! It's not impossible to encounter Wyrmlings, at that level, just kind of a joke to train to fight them... ;-p)

Now as for travelling skills, the 3e Ranger already has most of them (Climbing, Handle Animals (for driving wagons, etc.), Riding, and Swimming), with one glaringly obvious omission: Where is the Balance skill to keep them from falling out of trees or off of cliffs they've just climbed, and from slipping on ice (DC 15 Balance check to avoid)? Another obvious omission, IMHO, is Knowledge (Geography). The well-travelled should be more knowledgable in such respects (as well as culture, sociology, anthropology, etc.). I could also make a case for Knowledge (History) and Knowledge (Nobility), as well (Aragorn was certainly well-versed in these), perhaps all Knowledge skill, certainly Knowledge (Arcana) and Scry, at higher levels (if Wizard spells are gained - see below).

Also, as a sidebar, here, Knowledge (Nature) should be removed as a separate Ranger Skill; not because Rangers wouldn't know it, but because Wilderness Lore should fulfill any need for it! Knowledge (Nature) gives knowledge of plants and animals? Wilderness Lore allows finding food in the wild (impossible without knowledge of animals and plants), as well as bonuses to saves vs. weather conditions (hunting game for furs, where to make camp, which direction bad weather's coming from). Wilderness Lore also should allow weather prediction, which is much more needed for a Barbarian, Druid, or Ranger than a Cleric or Wizard!

(RANT!)Intuit Direction needs to be removed as a skill, altogether, and put back as a General Feat, where it belongs! This comes from the 2e Sense Direction Non-Weapon Proficiency, available to all. It has little real use in a game ("What, ANOTHER Teleport trap!?!"), can be used only once/day, and is only available as a Class Skill to Rangers and Rogues... Druids have a Zero-level Orison (unavailable to Rangers) which lets them determine direction, and a Ranger only needs this skill IF he fails his Wilderness Lore check to avoid getting lost, in the first place! If he DOES use the skill, he can determine direction only to within 45 degrees of N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, or a one-in-eight chance, if he GUESSED (12.5%). This is slightly worse than DC 17, unmodified, IF he could do it untrained. Since he cant, he would have a minimum of one Rank, and a probable +2 WIS bonus, making it DC 14. The DC to Intuit Direction is DC 15, or about the same (a little worse) than mere guessing! Even if the first level Ranger maxes out this skill, with four Ranks and a typical +2 bonus, they will still have to roll a nine or better to succeed, making them about as likely to fail! For a skill that eats up skill points like any other, the rewards for this one are too small in proportion to the cost, and has too few applications to gaming. Make it a General Feat with a 100% chance of success. It's just a better way to handle it!(/RANT!)

Now on to spell lists. The REAL "original" Ranger had no skills, save tracking. They weren't a part of 1e. He did, however, have eventual access to all Clerical spells of sixth level or less, much like the 1e Paladin. By the time 1e came out, however, he was given much weaker Druidic spells of up to fourth level (and started receiving them about eighth level), as well as first and second level Magic User spells (beginning at around ninth level, IIRC). He also had +33 1/3% chance to surprise (basically +7, in 3e terms, or +5 with the average +2 DEX modifier), and was surprised 16 2/3% less than other PCs (+4 Spot and Listen, or +2 with the average +2 WIS bonus, in 3e terms). They also gained a whopping +1/level damage bonus vs. the so-called "Giant-Class Creatures"; everything from Kobolds and Goblins to Dunestalkers and Giants.

In 2e, the spell list was eviscerated, the damage bonus greatly reduced (but the "Favoured Enemy" became player-selectable), and automatic Animal Empathy was introduced. In 3e, frankly, the spells were reduced too far (Sleep and Non-Detection are the final vestigages of the old MU spells, and healing power has been greatly reduced). Rangers don't even get all the spells of the Plant and Animal domains (Barkskin, for instance, is notable by its abscence).

So, I suggest giving Rangers (and Paladins) Zero-level Orisons, and expanding the spell list to include ALL Druid spells (for the Ranger, all Cleric spells for the Paladin), and also allowing the Ranger first and second level Wizard spells. Now in the old (1e) days, Rangers had to roll to learn spells, had minimum and maximum spells/level, had to keep spellbooks, etc. Today, that would probably mean a percentage chance of Spell Failure, too. This is fine, or the spells could be made divine, such as has been done with the Sleep spell, ignoring material components, and such like. Personally, I prefer making them keep spellbooks, use material components, and suffer armor check penalties as a means of balance... This makes them less likely to sling Magic Missiles, and more likely to use their spells for infiltration and spying, where they have time to doff the armor and shield to cast Alter Self, or whatever. Either way could work.

As for Feats, I like Monte Cook's way of handling this, but not at first level, as it actually makes them less powerful. He allowed one Bonus Feat at first level, and an additional one from a selected list (similar to, but different from, that of Fighters) every three levels thereafter (4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th). These could be chosen from among:

Ambidexterity,
Blindfight,
Combat Reflexes,
Dodge
(Mobility, Spring Attack),
Exotic Weapon Proficiency,
Expertise
(Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Whirlwind Attack),
Favoured Enemy Critical Strike (New, Ranger-only Feat),
Favoured Enemy Strike (New, Ranger-only Feat),
Mounted Combat
(Mounted Archery, Trample, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge),
Point Blank Shot
(Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run),
Quick Draw,
Two-Weapon Fighting
(Improved Two-Weapon Fighting),
Weapon Finesse, and
Weapon Focus.

He also added a few new spells, improved skill points to six/level, and increased the Reflex saves to equal a Rogue's. He also cut back the hit dice to D8s, instead of D10s. I think I would start the Ranger off with Track, and give him a Bonus Feat at first and second levels (sans front-loading), perhaps, or some new abilities every level (something I think all Classes need).

To make the lightly-armored Ranger more survivable, I think some form of Uncanny Dodge and Evasion would be good (usable only when in Light or no armor). Adding Endurance and Toughness to the list of Bonus Feats (as Zarathrustran suggested) would also be good. Perhaps Running, as well, and maybe even a couple of more New, Ranger-only Feats, such as the One-Time Feat to give them an extra D8 at first level (as in 1e), and a "Striding" Feat to increase their movement rate as Zarathrustran also suggested.

Other abilities that could be added at higher levels include the Druid's abilities to identify plants, animals, and water quality, and the ability to pass through overgrown areas at normal movement rate. Another might be the ability to correctly forecast the weather 24 hours in advance with a base chance of 5%/level.

And let's not forget the High-level 1e Ranger's ability to make use of any and all items having to do with Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, ESP, Telepathy, and such-like (obviously based upon Aragorn's wresting the Palantir of Orthanc from Sauron's control)! This could be handles (weakly) by simply giving the Ranger access to Knowledge (Arcana), Scry, and Use Magic Item at 10th Ranger level, or (more strongly) by giving them a limited-use "Pseudo-Skill" to be used with these types of devices, only, with a +20 bonus. Either method (or some combination) would work. If Rangers are given access to ALL Druid spells through fourth level, they would even get a scrying spell, upon attaining fourth-level spells, so Scrying would need to be added to the skills list, anyway, in that case.

Now for those worried that the Druid will be made obsolete, if the Ranger is allowed access to all their spells, note that the Ranger will always have fewer spells, and lag three Caster Levels behind. Also, she will not have all the many wondrous abilities that Druids have (and need I point out that all Druids can fight?)

Even without all of the new skills added, of course, the Ranger's skill points will need to be raised, probably commensurrate with the Rogue's. The minimum Skill Points/Level would be seven: enough for Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Wilderness Lore, and an occasional other choice.

Now note, here, that I am NOT ADVOCATING THE ADDOPTION OF ALL THESE IDEAS SIMULTANEOUSLY! (Is that clear?) The first step would be to decide upon which role the official Ranger should take, and then chose unique abilities appropriate to that role. If he is to infiltrate and spy, then those skills should be added. If he is supposed to be Aragorn-esque, then the prescribed (non-selectable) Favoured Enemies list should be reintroduced, and the affinity with certain types of magic restored.

The few new skills, increased spells, added Bonus Feats, and any added new abilites, however, will require downgrading some areas, and/or restricting certain abilities. In this mode, I am all for a return to the first edition Ranger, with D8s and being Humanoid-fighters, locking in their Favored Enemy bonuses against a list of particular creatures (see the complete list in the 1e Unearthed Arcana: Bugbears, cyclopskin, dune stalkers, Ettins, flinds, all Giants, gibberlings, Gnolls, Goblins, Grimlocks, Hobgoblins, Kobolds, meazels, norkers, Ogres, Ogre Magi, ogrillons, Orcs, quaggoth, taslois, Trolls, and xvarts, with the uncapitalized ones not yet appearing in the MM - I haven't seen the MM2, yet). I am also strongly in favor of restoring most of the former restrictions (must be of good alignment, cannot have more treasure than he and his mount can carry, must donate excess treasure, etc). Weapons could also be a bit more restricted, confining them to weapons commonly used in hunting and fishing.

And while we're on the subject, I might as well toss this out as part of my wish list, even if some of it doesn't have anything to do with Rangers... Making items needs to be totally revamped! The rules, as they now stand, require paying for materials! What Ranger with cobbling skills is going to go all the way back to town in order to PAY for leather to make himself a new pair of boots, when he has just killed a crocodile with his trusty trident? Now that's just plain silly! A Ranger would make as much of his/her gear as they could.

Also, another idea I have had for ALL classes is that they should be awarded ONE Rank in each Class Skill per level. This helps solve the problem of Wizards with no Spellcraft (who can't learn new spells), Rogues who can't pick locks or disarm traps, or Bards who have no ability to perform (not to mention Rangers with no Wilderness Lore or Animal Empathy). One Rank/level doesn't help that much, and also has the added benefit of, once you max out a Class Skill, it STAYS maxed out. This also allows the Fighter-types with few skill points to be able to invest both of them in a single Rank of a Cross-Class Skill, if they'd rather. For skills like Knowledge, one Rank of each would be gained. For skills like Craft and Profession, only one/level would be added, at the player's choice.

If this last rule was accepted, which skills a class has would be all the more important. Rogues would clean up the most, with Bards doing next-best, and Rangers doing well. Fighters, Wizards, and Sorcerers would improve in their skills, but be experts in a few things.

(Well, some will love that, some hate it. I haven't seen the rules for post-20th level, yet, so I don't know how a +20 bonus would work, at that level. Anyway, this post is long enough, and it'll giveya plenty to chew on.)

(Edited to correct typos and the mistaken impression that I was advocating the simultaneous adoption of ALL these ideas, at once!) :p
 
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You do realize that by implimenting even half of your suggestions, the Ranger would become, by far, the most powerful class? Unless you give other classes the same bonuses or comperable changes, the Ranger will be able to do almost anything and everything that any the other classes excell at.

Rangers already have arguably the 2nd best skill list. While it can, I think be reasonably argued that they should get more skill points, I definately don't think they need more class skills. As you say the Ranger "Ranges;" his skills focus on stealth, perception, and survival. He doe not need nor should he get social skills like Disguise or Sense Motive. Your hypothesis that Ranger's are spies is flawed. Ranger's aren'tt spies (at least not the kind you seem to think thay should be), they are scouts. They sneak out, find wherre the enemies are camped then report back. They don't dress up like an Orc and sneak in the enemy camp to assasinate the general. That's what Rogues do, not Rangers.

I also disagree tthat Ranggers should get full or expanded aces to Druid and/or Wizard's spell lists. Rangers aren't supposed to be great spell casters, just as they are nt supposed to be greatt at every skill. While their spells are rarely useful in combat, they are more than good enough to supplement their skills and fighting ability.

You are too generous in giving out bonuses and special ablities, and overzealous in proposing changes. While not the best at any one thing, the Ranger is a very good warrior, has many useful skills, and has a spell list that is useful in any wilderness settting. I agree that it could be improvedparticularly the favored enmy bonus, the Two Weapon Fighting ability, and the front loading problem. Your changes unbalance the Ranger making him the best at practically everything.



By the way, I don't think this is therightforum to post this, it should probably be in House Rules secttion.
 

And, now that I think about it, travellers are inured to the heat and cold so rangers should get Fire and Cold resistance at 5/level.

And they're really tough so rangers should get 2d12 for HD. (And they should add their con score instead of their con bonus to hp too in high powered campaigns).

And they pick up lots of fighting skills in their travels so they should get 1 bonus feat/level.

And. . . and. . . and. . . and. . .
 

Yep, the ranger mentioned in the first post, while rather exhaustive, is also far too powerful. Monte's ranger is also too powerful. The ranger from the PHB is too weak. Expect a buffed-up ranger in the revised PHB, which comes out in July.
 

The Ranger was originally introduced in "Strategic Review" (I have the actual magazine!). A couple of years ago I did a long comparison on the degeneration of rangers over the years, if I can find it I'll post it here.

One correction though - the original ranger had access to Clerical AND Magic user spells, starting at about 8th level for Clerical and 9th level for magic user spells. He could get up to 6th level Clerical spells because that was as high as cleric spell levels went! He could eventually get even 9th level arcane spells.

Grossly overpowered? Sure! Just mentioning it as a point of correction.

Cheers
 

I think that the PHB ranger is too front loaded - as most people seem to agree. (Why TWF and ambidexterity - even if you haven't got the DEX??)

Monte's web edition ranger is way overpowered IMO - nearly as many feats as a fighter, nearly as many skill points as a rogue, good saves and spells for good measure.

The revised version presented in Book of Hallowed Might is much better balanced and is the version I have adopted as the default in my campaign. (We'll have to see what WotC come up with in the 3E revision).

Since many monsters can advance in character classes why shouldn't you meet a goblinoid at 20th level. (And as MotW points out Favoured Enemy - Human is acceptable for non-human rangers.) I also go along with Sean K Reynolds in giving rangers their FE bonus against creatures immune to criticals - making favoured enemy - undead useable.
 


Ah, the poor ranger:(

My thing about the ranger, is in many ways a fighter/rogue is superior to the ranger. They get practically all of the rangers good skills, and overall get 1 more skill point per level. You get the feats of the fighter, and the sneak attack of the rogue (which is often much MUCH better than favored enemy and doesn't need light armor). Then, you get uncanny dodge and evasion, and overall your saves are bettter

You give up some hp and base attack bonus, but I think overall you get a lot more than you would going the ranger route.

I keep making this suggestion, but noone else seems to pick up on it. Bonus feats are not the way to fix the ranger. They are a cop out imho. Fighters get bonus feats, that's what they do, that's what they are. I don't want a fighter wannabe as a ranger, I want a unique and seperate class that has good strengths and weaknesses compared to the fighter.

The fighter and paladin show this distinction. While both fight, they are unique in their own ways. The paladin is not just a specilized fighter, he possesses abilities and restrictions that don't even involve actual combat.

I think the ranger should be the same way, and giving him bonus feats that the fighter could pick up as well doesn't cut it for me. I think the ranger should get special abilities based on its stealth, perception, its "ranging'" if you will. Also, would anyone consider giving the ranger the same favored enemy bonus to all its enemies overpowered? (basically +1 to goblinoids at 1st, +2 to goblins, humans at 5, etc).

Either this, or giving him special feats for rangers is also a good way. Monte has a feat that gives you an extra d6 against all attacks on favored enemies. This is good, as long as the feats don't bring you back to the rangers problem of being too front loaded (if I can get most of the ranger feats with one level of ranger and the rest fighter, why bother with ranger?).

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but I just don't see adding some bonus feats and skill pts making the ranger "cool." I want to play a cool class, and there are ways to do that for each other class, fairly easily. And while it can be done with the ranger, it can be an uphill battle.
 

I've moved this to House Rules, as that forum seems to fit best (just before GD) for this discussion. :)
 

Origianally posted by Stalker0
My thing about the ranger, is in many ways a fighter/rogue is superior to the ranger. They get practically all of the rangers good skills, and overall get 1 more skill point per level. You get the feats of the fighter, and the sneak attack of the rogue (which is often much MUCH better than favored enemy and doesn't need light armor). Then, you get uncanny dodge and evasion, and overall your saves are bettter

...But Rangers get a better BAB, spells, Animal Companions, Wilderness Lore and Animal Empathy as Class skills. And if you pick up a 3rd class you'll likely face and XP penalty.

Not that I completely disagree with you. While a multiclass character will be REALLY GOOD at some things, the Ranger is GOOD at the same things and better in others. I find it interesting that the classes people most often complain about beig underpowered, the Ranger and the Bard, are the ones who dabble in a little bit of everything (stealth, magic, fighting, skills). My view is that even though the Ranger (and the Bard) is not the best at any one thing, if played correctly, their should never be a situation where he is useless. I like that their are clases like that and don't think the Ranger should be changed so he's really good at "ranging" but less effective in other pursuits. Their aren't any more things wrong with the Ranger than are wrong with any other class.
 

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