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Ranking and discussing Strongholds and Followers
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7840461" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So, the Kingdom and Warfares kickstarter got me thinking about Strongholds and Followers again. I haven't had a lot of chances to use the rules, though a DM of mine is running a campaign where we are using them (post-apocalyptic so we had to ignore a lot of the rules involving money, which has been harsh on my Warlock's Establishment). However, the little use I have gotten out of it did make me dubious about some of the abilities. A lot of this seems internally unbalanced, to the point of making me scratch my head in confusion in some cases.</p><p></p><p>So, I want to have a discussion about some of the rules, some of the things I've been considering to rebalance, and see if I can get some new ideas to help that process along.</p><p></p><p>And the best way to get people talking tends to be ranking things, so I'm going to do that. I decided on a 4-color system.</p><p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">Red is bad, generally really bad</span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)">Orange generally lacking for some reason</span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: rgb(65, 168, 95)">Green is good, sometimes just because it is fun</span></p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: rgb(41, 105, 176)">Blue is incredibly, amazing, and all that.</span> </p> <p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">I almost put a level above blue, but refrained. </span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">The first thing to keep in mind is that there are four overarching types of strongholds. Keeps, Towers, Temples, and Establishments. I'm not going to talk too much about them, but they are a bit odd. Keeps are all about warfare. You get free units, units are cheaper, they can be used to defend you in war, they give martial bonuses to training with weapons or gear. It's a bit, and all focused on fighting and war. Towers.... allow you to "research new spells" by choosing some new abilities from a chart. They can act as a fortification as well, but that is about it. Temples have the Concordance system, but... I can't tell if it is meant to be exclusive to temples or not, since having a temple gives you a 30% bonus. They can also act as fortifications, but if Concordance is spread among more people (which I feel like it should be since it is a good system for anyone who has a higher power invested in them) then Temples don't offer much. Establishments give you immense amounts of gold, they can buy the abilities of other strongholds, they spy and collect information, but they have no stats for warfare, so they can be easily destroyed unless someone else is defending them.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">I mention all of this, because getting a basic understanding of what these are helps explain some oddities in the abilities below.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">Also to explain, Demesne effects are constant passives that your stronghold exerts over the land. Stronghold actions are like player lair actions, acting on Initiative count 20, but only if you are fighting at home. Then you get a "Class Ability Improvement" which you can use a number of times based on your stronghold level (1 - 5) and is refreshed after you finish a week long rest back home.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><strong><span style="font-size: 22px">Barbarians</span></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">Demesne -</span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(65, 168, 95)"><strong><span style="font-size: 22px">1 -</span></strong></span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px">Ale within the Demesne is particularly refreshing, bringing good cheer with no hangovers the next day</span> </span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px">Starting with a green, this ability is just kind of fun. You can't get drunk and hungover while in a Barbarian's Demesne unless you want to. It isn't super powerful or impactful, but it has some nice flavor and I like it. </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(65, 168, 95)"><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong>2 -</strong></span></span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px">Wildlife within the Demesne grows especially large and fierce, migrating to follow the camp (which the camp might not move) </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 22px"><span style="font-size: 15px">Also Green, wildlife near a Barbarian's Demesne gets big and mean, fueling that primal state that is iconic for a lot of Barbarians. It specifically mentions the "barbarian camp moving" which... is irksome. Barbarian Camps (not to be confused with Barbarian Camps, because who could confuse that) are a special type of mobile keep. So, if your Barbarian built an Arena (establishment) or a Temple, that wouldn't even be an option. But, this fits with what an area controlled by a Barbarian could be, and I find it interesting. </span></span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(41, 105, 176)"><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong>3 -</strong></span></span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px">Poisons brought into the Demesne are neutralized within the hour. No such cowardly forms of death are permitted </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px">A Blue, no poisons are allowed within a Barbarian's Demesne. Now, you might think that an hour gives someone plenty of time to get things done, but a Demesne is a 24 mile hex, so unless you can cover ground incredibly quickly then it is impossible. Also, this gives you some political clout, which might be weird for a Barbarian. I assume these abilities are not secret in the world, these aren't lost magicks you are uncovering. So, every Noble would know that a dinner party held by a Barbarian will not be poisoned, cannot be poisoned. That can be big. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px">Stronghold Actions - </span></span></p><p></p><p><span style="color: rgb(65, 168, 95)"><span style="font-size: 22px"><strong>1 -</strong></span></span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px">You issue a might "yawp" that causes all enemies within 60 ft to be frightened until initiative count 20 on next turn </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px"><span style="font-size: 15px">I put this as a Green, it is a free free, within 60 ft, but as we'll see, there are a lot of abilities that are far far far better than this that people can get. Especially since Fear is pretty easy to counter and this only lasts 1 turn. Can't be resisted though which is good.</span></span></span><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"> </span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(41, 105, 176)"><span style="font-size: 18px"><strong>2 -</strong></span></span> <span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px">You rage and all allies gain the benefit of this rage as long as they are not wearing heavy armor </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px"><span style="font-size: 15px">Initiative count 20, you rage and everyone else rages alongside you. This is crazy good. First of all, it isn't just the party. Remember, this is a system made for warfare. You get armies, all of whom rage. It doesn't say how long this lasts, but my guess would be until a Rage would normally end. This is terrifying to come up against, which is why Blue. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(41, 105, 176)"><span style="font-size: 18px"><strong>3 -</strong></span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 18px"> You cast Chain Lightning, DC 8+prof+con, this can be done while raging </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px">A free spell, and a good one at that. Nothing to sneeze at for someone lacking ranged options. Also, it can happen while you are raging, which could lead to some interesting shenagins. Blue ability. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px">Class Improvement</span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(251, 160, 38)"><span style="font-size: 15px"><strong>Chieftain's Rage:</strong> </span></span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span style="font-size: 15px">Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hp, you can choose to make a weapon attack or move up to your speed. You can do this a number of times equal to your stronghold level and it refreshes on an extended rest. </span></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">So, yeah, this is Orange. I find it lacking. The weapon attack is free, and I know Barbarian's hit hard. But a third attack occasionally is nothing really special. And the free movement can be great for tactical movement, but... it just isn't that impactful to me. When you start you get this once a week. Are you really going to be impressed with "Once a week, I can move after dropping an enemy"? I don't think so.</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">I don't know what a good Barbarian ability might be though. My first thought is "Make a single attack roll against every enemy within your threatened area." Kind of a massive sweep of the battlefield. Or maybe an ability that makes a single even bigger attack than normal, like "Make an attack, double the damage dice for this attack".</span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)"></span></p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0)">You may think these sound OP, but wait til you see some stuff down the list.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7840461, member: 6801228"] So, the Kingdom and Warfares kickstarter got me thinking about Strongholds and Followers again. I haven't had a lot of chances to use the rules, though a DM of mine is running a campaign where we are using them (post-apocalyptic so we had to ignore a lot of the rules involving money, which has been harsh on my Warlock's Establishment). However, the little use I have gotten out of it did make me dubious about some of the abilities. A lot of this seems internally unbalanced, to the point of making me scratch my head in confusion in some cases. So, I want to have a discussion about some of the rules, some of the things I've been considering to rebalance, and see if I can get some new ideas to help that process along. And the best way to get people talking tends to be ranking things, so I'm going to do that. I decided on a 4-color system. [CENTER][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]Red is bad, generally really bad[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)]Orange generally lacking for some reason[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(65, 168, 95)]Green is good, sometimes just because it is fun[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)]Blue is incredibly, amazing, and all that.[/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I almost put a level above blue, but refrained. [/COLOR][/CENTER] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]The first thing to keep in mind is that there are four overarching types of strongholds. Keeps, Towers, Temples, and Establishments. I'm not going to talk too much about them, but they are a bit odd. Keeps are all about warfare. You get free units, units are cheaper, they can be used to defend you in war, they give martial bonuses to training with weapons or gear. It's a bit, and all focused on fighting and war. Towers.... allow you to "research new spells" by choosing some new abilities from a chart. They can act as a fortification as well, but that is about it. Temples have the Concordance system, but... I can't tell if it is meant to be exclusive to temples or not, since having a temple gives you a 30% bonus. They can also act as fortifications, but if Concordance is spread among more people (which I feel like it should be since it is a good system for anyone who has a higher power invested in them) then Temples don't offer much. Establishments give you immense amounts of gold, they can buy the abilities of other strongholds, they spy and collect information, but they have no stats for warfare, so they can be easily destroyed unless someone else is defending them. I mention all of this, because getting a basic understanding of what these are helps explain some oddities in the abilities below. Also to explain, Demesne effects are constant passives that your stronghold exerts over the land. Stronghold actions are like player lair actions, acting on Initiative count 20, but only if you are fighting at home. Then you get a "Class Ability Improvement" which you can use a number of times based on your stronghold level (1 - 5) and is refreshed after you finish a week long rest back home. [B][SIZE=6]Barbarians[/SIZE][/B] Demesne -[/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(65, 168, 95)][B][SIZE=6]1 -[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][B][SIZE=6] [/SIZE][/B][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=5]Ale within the Demesne is particularly refreshing, bringing good cheer with no hangovers the next day[/SIZE] [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=4]Starting with a green, this ability is just kind of fun. You can't get drunk and hungover while in a Barbarian's Demesne unless you want to. It isn't super powerful or impactful, but it has some nice flavor and I like it. [/SIZE][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(65, 168, 95)][SIZE=6][B]2 -[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][SIZE=6][B] [/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=5]Wildlife within the Demesne grows especially large and fierce, migrating to follow the camp (which the camp might not move) [/SIZE] [SIZE=6][SIZE=4]Also Green, wildlife near a Barbarian's Demesne gets big and mean, fueling that primal state that is iconic for a lot of Barbarians. It specifically mentions the "barbarian camp moving" which... is irksome. Barbarian Camps (not to be confused with Barbarian Camps, because who could confuse that) are a special type of mobile keep. So, if your Barbarian built an Arena (establishment) or a Temple, that wouldn't even be an option. But, this fits with what an area controlled by a Barbarian could be, and I find it interesting. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)][SIZE=6][B]3 -[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=5]Poisons brought into the Demesne are neutralized within the hour. No such cowardly forms of death are permitted [/SIZE] [SIZE=4]A Blue, no poisons are allowed within a Barbarian's Demesne. Now, you might think that an hour gives someone plenty of time to get things done, but a Demesne is a 24 mile hex, so unless you can cover ground incredibly quickly then it is impossible. Also, this gives you some political clout, which might be weird for a Barbarian. I assume these abilities are not secret in the world, these aren't lost magicks you are uncovering. So, every Noble would know that a dinner party held by a Barbarian will not be poisoned, cannot be poisoned. That can be big. Stronghold Actions - [/SIZE][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(65, 168, 95)][SIZE=6][B]1 -[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][SIZE=5] [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=5]You issue a might "yawp" that causes all enemies within 60 ft to be frightened until initiative count 20 on next turn [SIZE=4]I put this as a Green, it is a free free, within 60 ft, but as we'll see, there are a lot of abilities that are far far far better than this that people can get. Especially since Fear is pretty easy to counter and this only lasts 1 turn. Can't be resisted though which is good.[/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)][SIZE=5][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/SIZE] [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)][SIZE=5][B]2 -[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] [/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=5]You rage and all allies gain the benefit of this rage as long as they are not wearing heavy armor [SIZE=4]Initiative count 20, you rage and everyone else rages alongside you. This is crazy good. First of all, it isn't just the party. Remember, this is a system made for warfare. You get armies, all of whom rage. It doesn't say how long this lasts, but my guess would be until a Rage would normally end. This is terrifying to come up against, which is why Blue. [/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] [/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(41, 105, 176)][SIZE=5][B]3 -[/B][/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=5] You cast Chain Lightning, DC 8+prof+con, this can be done while raging [/SIZE] [SIZE=4]A free spell, and a good one at that. Nothing to sneeze at for someone lacking ranged options. Also, it can happen while you are raging, which could lead to some interesting shenagins. Blue ability. Class Improvement[/SIZE][/COLOR] [COLOR=rgb(251, 160, 38)] [SIZE=4][B]Chieftain's Rage:[/B] [/SIZE][/COLOR][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][SIZE=4]Whenever you reduce an enemy to 0 hp, you can choose to make a weapon attack or move up to your speed. You can do this a number of times equal to your stronghold level and it refreshes on an extended rest. [/SIZE] So, yeah, this is Orange. I find it lacking. The weapon attack is free, and I know Barbarian's hit hard. But a third attack occasionally is nothing really special. And the free movement can be great for tactical movement, but... it just isn't that impactful to me. When you start you get this once a week. Are you really going to be impressed with "Once a week, I can move after dropping an enemy"? I don't think so. I don't know what a good Barbarian ability might be though. My first thought is "Make a single attack roll against every enemy within your threatened area." Kind of a massive sweep of the battlefield. Or maybe an ability that makes a single even bigger attack than normal, like "Make an attack, double the damage dice for this attack". You may think these sound OP, but wait til you see some stuff down the list.[/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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