Rant About Recent Dungeon Magazines

In defense of Polyhedron

I just wanted to say that I recently extended my subscription due to the fact that I get both Dungeon and Polyhedron in one.

I LOVE the Polyhedron minigames. I wish they would tie more into D&D or existing third party d20 games though. The Githyanki issue was awesome because it was useable in my D&D game in a way that most Dungeon adventures aren't.

However, Iron Lords of Jupiter is also way cool.

I like Dungeon adventures too but most of the time the adventures are not usable for my group due to our campaign not being in an easy position to include them without some serious plot rewrites. So Dungeon is not a big deal to me.

So what I would like to see is more, but shorter Dungeon adventures.

For Polyhedron, some more fantasy-slanted content and crunchy bits. Either that or more third party support. A Polyhedron issue devoted to M&M or Spycraft would be way cool!

Anyway, to cut to the point, don't short Polyhedron because you are paying too much attention to all the "I want more Dungeon" whiners! :D

Us Polyhedron fans are not as vocal a minority, but we are out here too!
 
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Erik Mona said:
[BOh, certainly. In fact, if it ends as popular as it started, we might just roll into a completely new Adventure Path at that point. Response has been overwhelmingly positive.

--Erik Mona [/B]

How about when it's all done, Dungeon releases a nicely bound compilation of the Shackled City Adventure Path Campaign?

I'd pay $30 for that mega-adventure.
 

Hey, congrats Erik! I think it's great news that you're running the whole mag now - I thought you did a fantastic job with Poly. :D

As far as the Iron_Chef-esque Dungeon whiners go, I'd much rather lose Dungeon than Polyhedron if it had to be one or the other. I like Dungeon a lot, but there are other sources of adventure material. Polyhedron provides unique content that you can't get elsewhere, not the least of which is LGJ, the last holdout of Greyhawk support.
 

Polyhedron

I'd like to throw my support for Poly in. I enjoy the adventures (the Adventure Path is awesome) in Dungeon, but I tend to get a lot more use out of the mini-games and other Poly content. I also agree that it would be an excellent idea to have articles in Poly that supported other D20 games.

Starman
 

First of all, congrats on the promotion Erik!

Second, I like the occasional long adventure (emphasis on occasional), although when I saw the latest issue, I kind of knew it would get this response. While I thought it a cool thing in general, I thought the timing of a single uber-adventure was a bad idea with the recent change in format. I can understand why people aren't happy with this issue, but I am content and wondering where I can fit it into my game.

I think that cutting back to 4 mini-games per year and then a good number of adventures in every mag is a palatable change -- just make the ones that you do make good ones! Just don't cut the mini-games entirely. They're way too cool to completely do away with them. I'm hoping these changes will satisfy more of the fans, but of course I'll be happy with whatever you dish up.

Expect an adventure proposal from me sometime in the near future.
 

Erik Mona said:
I went on about this at some length in another post, but here's the short answer: Message received.

For starters, I want to run at least three Dungeon adventures per issue (this will probably fall to 2 when we run the adventure path). No more 36-page FR adventures. I'm currently thinking that the Adventure Path is the _only_ type of adventure (excluding some we've already bought) that will go over 30 pages. We just don't have the room for those kinds of monsters, and besides I think most Dungeon DMs probably prefer the shorter (15-20 page) adventures, anyway.

It'll take me a couple more issues to get things back to 3 per issue, but it's a definite goal, and I'm working very hard to make sure we hit that goal within the next couple issues.

If you have other suggestions, I'm all ears.

--Erik Mona

You do this and I will subscribe again. Excellent.

Forsythe
 

Erik,

I've got some complaints and some suggestions about the Dungeon/Poly magazine.

First of all, I used to LOVE the minigames. I didn't used to buy dragon, and I didn't buy Dungeon for the dungeons; I bought only for the mingame. I'd flip through the dungeons, but it was the minigame I was interested in.

But I've got to tell you: I now pretty much hate the minigames. Look, there just aren't too many more genres you can cover. I think the Iron Lords of Jupiter -- a John Carter take-off, right? -- is an awfully narrow piece of the sci-fi real estate. And a customer is either interested or he's not. Me? I'm not. And I haven't been keen on the past year's worth of minigames.

The other problem with the minigames is that they get sooooooooooo repetitive. There are only so many times you can feature the Strong Guy, Sneaky Guy, and Magic/Tech Guy character templates in differing genres before they begin to run together.

And every time you run a minigame, you focus on these repetitive game-mechanical concerns, where you pretty much just rewrite the PH but with a twist. That leaves almost NO SPACE for what should be the meat of the game-- information about the setting, plot hooks, maybe a mini-adventure to get everyone started in. In other words, you're spending too much page space on new PH clones and never giving us the DMG for your games, or a module for your new games.

If you're going to continue the minigame thing at all, I suggest the following:

1) Do fewer minigames than you've even planned.

2) Don't do two minigames. Do one well-detailed minigame, with both PH and DMG, spread over two issues. Use the remainder of the space for Dungeon or non-miinigame Polyhedron content.

Finally, here's my BIGGEST BEST SUGGESTION OF ALL, and it won't even hurt all that much, because you're already doing it. You've probably already figured this out, but I'll say it anyway for reinforcement:

Since you have a natural conflict between Dungeon-desirerers and minigame seekers, attempt to publish more "games" that actually satisfy both. The Spelljammer and Githyanki "games" were great examples of this-- they're not so much different games as more specific games within the D&D context; they can serve as both "minigames" or splatbooks for a specific area of D&D play.

The posssibilities in this area are quite expansive.

1) You could do an Astral Plane minigame like the old Fedifensor game from the old Dragon. Give us special rules for running this "minigame" on the Astral Plane. Bang, it's both a minigame and a splatbook on the Astral Plane.

2) Do a Mermen versus Sahuagin minigame where you give us not only lots of detail on Merfolk and Sahaugin culture, but you give us a splatbook on aquatic travel and combat.

3) Do a Knights of the High Kingdom minigame premised on knights who ride aerial mounts. The game could nominally concern tournament rules or whatnot, but it would obviously be a great D&D splatbook for aerial combat.

4) Do a Harry Potteresque Wizards Acadamy minigame. Nominally, it's a game about advancing yourself and training and defeating schoolyard rivals as a teenaged mage in a big city of the world. But it also serves as a splatbook for magical academies.

5) Your gladiator cross-over issues would have made a great minigame, too.


One more thing: Why not present more D&D-compatible games in which players <i>compete against each other</i>? For example, why not present a minigame which is a bit like Steve Jackson's Frag game? In other words, sort of a Dungeon-boardgame and D&D hybrid, where the players don't role-play or compete, but merely move around the board (using almost all normal D&D rules) collecting Atomic Fragmenters and killing each other?




Etc.

And yes, occasionally do a minigame that isn't D&D, but only when it's a genuinely good idea. I'm sorry, I just don't consider the Iron Lords of Jupiter a good idea; and while the V for Victory is a good basic concept for a WWII game, I need more than a few character classes to have a real game. Do you really need to reprint the skills and feat sections of the Player's Handbook with every game?

.........................................................

Anyway, I just thought you should know all this. I'm one of the guys who really liked the minigames at first, but now I am sick to death of them. So you can't just dismiss me as someone who's always hated the minigames. I used to buy the mag for nothing but the minigame.

But at this point, I just would rather have more dungeons, or more game variant material, or more... whatever. Anything besides yet another minigame in which I'm told that the Stealthy feat gives me +2 to Hide and +2 to Move Silently.

Unless.

Unless it's something REALLY frigging cool. Or just a really dumb-fun beer and pretzles d20 game, like a Pro Wrestling game using D&D rules.

But if it's just going to be the nth iteration of the Players Handbook, this time set on, I don't know, Planet Mongo, then please, let's just have a dungeon.
 

Erik Mona said:
Iron Chef said:

>>>
Does this mean you are looking at a way not to aliennate non-subscribers with subscriber-only content?
>>>

Correct.

Does this mean that the subscriber-only content is going to be something that's aimed to not upset non-subscribers or does that mean subscriber only content is going away?

It's time for me to renew my subscription to Dungeon & I'm going to be quite annoyed if the promised subscriber only content is not going to be included. Indeed, it's quite possibly a deal-breaker.

I've stuck through Dungeon & Dragon for quite a while. While I understand some of the financial concerns that have caused some changes in the magazine, I'm really getting sick of the "bait and switch" tactics that seem to be becoming more commonplace as Paizo decides which section of their audience they are going to ply to this week. I understood financial concerns behind eliminating the Annual, but found the attitude behind the change very questionable (it came across as "You guys complained about the d20 Special, so we decided to elminate it.")

Now announcing that there would be a subscriber-only adventure every X issues and then withdrawing it would be just another reason to bail out of a sinking ship.

Glyfair of Glamis
 
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The posssibilities in this area are quite expansive.
1) You could do an Astral Plane minigame like the old Fedifensor game from the old Dragon. Give us special rules for running this "minigame" on the Astral Plane. Bang, it's both a minigame and a splatbook on the Astral Plane.
2) Do a Mermen versus Sahuagin minigame where you give us not only lots of detail on Merfolk and Sahaugin culture, but you give us a splatbook on aquatic travel and combat.
3) Do a Knights of the High Kingdom minigame premised on knights who ride aerial mounts. The game could nominally concern tournament rules or whatnot, but it would obviously be a great D&D splatbook for aerial combat.
4) Do a Harry Potteresque Wizards Acadamy minigame. Nominally, it's a game about advancing yourself and training and defeating schoolyard rivals as a teenaged mage in a big city of the world. But it also serves as a splatbook for magical academies.
5) Your gladiator cross-over issues
These sound great...nice ideas Billbo. Maybe you might submit them yourself?
 

I'd like to see, for an example, a Horror Survival minigame, using the D&D rules. In this game, everyone plays a teenager; it's Halloween (of course), and all the kids are sneaking into the local six-flags type park after midnight. (Friends of them who work there are letting them in without the owner's permission.)

But it turns out that a psychopath who worked at the park ten years ago, and murdered eight teenagers one night, has now escaped from the mental asylum and is coming back to the theme park to kill. Name of the game? Scream Park.

Now, you may or may not like that particular idea. But the concept I'm getting at is a sort of blend between a real different "minigame" and a conventional adventure module. It's a bit of both-- it's really just an adventure module using the basic D&D rules, but you present a BIT of new rules that suit the genre. (In our Horror game, for example, we present rules for Fear, the rule that stipulates that a lumbering hulk of a mental patient can keep up with a running teenager just by walking at a deliberate pace, etc.-- minor tweaks, but no reinventing the wheel.) And so someone can just open the magazine up and run a module in a different time period/genre than medieval fantasy.
The idea is that the game sort of qualifies as both a variant, alternative-universe D&D adventure AND a minigame, so it could, hopefully, satisfy two different crowds at once.

I think that's a game type you've been ignoring for the past couple of years-- the fun, out of the box, no thinking required beer&pretzel type game, where the DM doesn't have to create an adventure or create a new game world; he just runs the module straight out of the magazine.
 

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