Rant: Flavor restrictions

[bwgwl]

And Barbarian societies were often VERY lawful.

And, despite the obvious cultural flaws, Barbarians are Chaotic because they Rage?

just to argue one point -- not everyone in a barbarian society is going to have levels in the Barbarian class. in fact, probably very few would; only a select few chaotic raging berserk warriors. just because the Barbarian class can't be lawful doesn't say anything about the society these individuals come from.

i agree with the designers for the most part -- raging to me seems like a very chaotic activity, and not something a very lawful person would do.

So a Lawful Cleric or paladin couldn't go into a Holy Rage when witnessing an atrocity?

i wouldn't call it "Rage" in that instance. i once built a prestige class for a group of holy warriors of a lawful neutral god that got a "rage"-like ability based on their religious zeal. i called it "fervor." it gave a slightly lower bonus to Con but a better bonus to Will saves. otherwise, it was identical with the Barbarian's rage ability mechanically, just different in flavor.

i do agree with you about wizards and lawfulness -- i've often contemplated a house rule where wizards have to be nonchaotic and sorcerers have to be nonlawful. just to give a bit more flavor difference between the two classes and accentuate their methods of magic.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

just to argue one point -- not everyone in a barbarian society is going to have levels in the Barbarian class. in fact, probably very few would; only a select few chaotic raging berserk warriors. just because the Barbarian class can't be lawful doesn't say anything about the society these individuals come from.

i agree with the designers for the most part -- raging to me seems like a very chaotic activity, and not something a very lawful person would do.

I guess this depends on which version of the Lawful-Chaotic axis you're using. Is it discipline vs. uncontrolled behavior? Society vs. the individual? Stripes vs. paisley? I've even heard it described as Harmony vs. Discord, but that throws a lot of Good vs. Evil baggage on it (Harmony vs. Discord sounds like LG vs. CE to me). At any rate, it doesn't feel right to me that the greatest, most dedicated warriors of a Lawful society would be Chaotic. Maybe if they called the class "The Berserker" I wouldn't be having this problem...

At any rate, it seems like the Lawful-Chaotic axis is being used differently every time it is applied (or maybe I just haven't figured out the underlying logic the designers are using).

btw- I really like the "Fervor" idea. Good flavor there.

 

[takyris]

Where did that definition of enligtenment come from? I was under the impression that enlightenment was supposed to bring with it compassion for all beings (i.e. it's definitively Good).

The whole Law-Chaos axis is such muddy water that having restrictions based around it is sadistic.

Ah, you got me. Not being Lawful Neutral myself, I was trying to describe what the character would think. I personally agree with you, but the Druid/Monk will think differently.

I can see your point on Barbarians -- but I haven't really ever been hurting for a Lawful barbarian. I had an idea for a gentle warrior who lived off the land and "channeled the spirits of his ancestors" in times of great need, but he was gonna be NG, not LG.

It does sort of bring up the question, though. If a barbarian lives by the laws of his people, does that make him lawful? Or is a barbarian society inherently chaotic, so that him living by those laws doesn't make him lawful?

When I think about these things, I realize that I'm worrying too much, it's just a game, and I should go have a cookie.

-Tacky

 

[bwgwl]

btw- I really like the "Fervor" idea. Good flavor there.

thanks. the prestige class was my interpretation of the "real" assassins of the Middle East during the Crusades era. they were nothing like the Assassins in the DMG -- rather than relying on stealthy sneak attacks to take down their foe, they'd instead just run up to their victim, ignoring whatever guards or other people might be present, and attempt to strike them down. these assassins knew full well it was usually a suicide mission and they would be killed soon after killing their victim, but they had been promised entry into Paradise if they did it.

all in all, their structured organization and fanatical devotion to their religion seemed more lawful to me than chaotic. and their ability to use their fanatic zeal to bolster their attacks sounded a lot like a "rage"-like ability.

(my original idea for the class was simply a minor variant of the DMG Assassin class that used divine spells instead of arcane. these other abilities were added later after i had spent more time thinking about the purpose of the class.)

i believe the prestige class is still on the web on my old (no longer updated) website.

here it is: Holy Slayer