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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 2252614" data-attributes="member: 151">So, the question seems even more valid to me: what IS Grim and Gritty, other than a catchphrase?  It sounds like it's like art or pornography: "I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it."  Except that several posters here clearly have differing definitions of what 'it' is, although Wulf seems to hit the closest to a more solid definition.To me, the origins of GnG always stem from the fact that D&D is built around fighting monsters, in the same way that Champions was built around fighting Supervillains.  In Champions (at least, in previous editions) a baby could throw a football the length of a football field.  Verisimilitude took a dive, in favor of the overall system.  In D&D, a 10th-level figher is Frazetta's Deathdealer, standing atop a pile of th vanquished dead.  Normal humans?  They are not threat to the Deathdealer; nothing short of a great wyrm raises his ire.The problem, of course, is that this strains our sense of disbelief.  The idea that a 10th level fighter can hold an army to stand-still irritates someone who doesn't want an Achilles or Cuchulain in his game (who, by the way, were crappy team players).  Unless we're talking about the Hot Gates and the 300 (and look how that ended), it fails the logic test.  At a certain point, D&D stops being about Conan and starts being about Wuxia and some folks don't dig that, they don't dig it at all.For me, the 13th Warrior IS grim-and-gritty.  As someone pointed out, the lethality is high (and was expected to be).  While the filmmaker plays with our expectations a little, it's a non-magical environment and except for the occasional nod to cinematics, is very internally consistent.  Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is Exalted material, regardless of how tragic.  People die because honor and fate decree it should be so, not because of true physical breakdown.  It's not grim...quite the opposite, in fact, it's tragedy in the classic Chinese/Greek mold.  At some points in the movie, it looks like everyone has a chance at a happy ending; the fact that they are all denied it so unpleasantly doesn't feel grim, to me. The Black Company, to me, is GnG.  With the exception of Croaker, anyone can die at any time, sometimes totally without warning.  Combat is violent, bloody and its consequences are long-lasting.  Yes, there are god-like beings astride the earth...but with the exception of the Dominator, they all can be vulnerable, even the Limper.  None of the Taken are beyond death, as they discover the hard way as things go on.Grim and Gritty, I've always thought, contained the key elements of realistic, unpleasant combat and a certain degree of fatalism or pessimistic realism.  But, like I said, "I know it when I see it." <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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