Rant on Errata and what Wizards need to do to move forward.

I think 4e probably needed another 6-9 months of playtesting - proper playtesting, not just 1 hour encounters - to bed it in, identifying issues they initially screwed up like the amount of damage PCs & monsters should be doing by level, what skill DCs by level should look like, how skill challenges should work (I'm not sure they can have playtested skill challenges at all). If they had nailed down those big things prior to release then the errata would be fairly trivial errata, not major rules changes that disgruntle the player base left with near-obsolete books. They should probably have aimed for a Christmas 2008 release.

Agreed on all counts. Also, the books should be getting another couple of passes from the editorial team.

Frankly, it looks like WotC are (or at least were) treating 4e like (bad) software - release early, and patch later. The problem is that pen-and-paper RPGs aren't software. When I apply a patch to my laptop's OS, the change is applied invisibly. When I try to apply errata to my printed book, I end up with a mess.

Still, at least they gave us plenty of whitespace to write in that errata.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sure is mad in here; maybe we can address some of these points without getting emotional about it. Some people may have already covered a few of these.

My other two cents: When we were promised before release that we would all be getting digital PDF versions of our books, I was thrilled. How cool would it be to ALWAYS have all of the errata in the books you bought? I remember the plan being something like you input a code from inside your book for your updates to your PDF. How awesome was that idea?

How :):):):):):) it is that now that's just some vaporware like the character designer ads that are still there in my original 4th Ed PHB.

You know WotC is owned by another company, right? Hasbro vetoed the digital distribution because they were afraid it would wind up costing them too much money given what they'd already seen on what few books they did release. Piracy is a tricky problem and simply ignoring it and bringing convenience to the masses anyway doesn't help the company protect their work. I'm not saying the choice to abandon digital distribution was the right one, but it's not without its reasons.

(I'm not going to touch on piracy further, as this answer pretty much covers all of them. Let's not demonize the wrong group of people, particularly for a decision that wasn't theirs.)

Now I start my session last weekend and get excited when a dragon is about to stomp on the party and one of my players (who stays up on new errata like no-one else) tells me ALL of the dragons have been changed.

So that renders my plan to pick up the Draconomicon books kinda uncertain. Then when I think about it, every book that gets released has me hesitating. It's insane. And the only reliable and working piece of software that included all of the updates perfectly... has been scrapped. They're trying to make us pay MMO prices without there being an MMO product.

For starters, who cares what your player says or what the errata is? Who's the DM at the table? Address the errata later. The dragon they're fighting is the one you have NOW. If you have another dragon later on, well then you can use updated stats if you're so inclined.

Not sure what you're referencing on the working piece of software getting scrapped, as the data used in the oCB/oMB is all in the Compendium, which still works fine.

Start using your brand to sell other products. Invest in a movie or tv series without it being a razzie contender. Share the profits with known writers and directors. Look at how Marvel has marketed their brand. Merchandising. Sell D&D merchandise. Lucas did it with Star Wars. Hasbro... come on guys. Someone there is out to lunch.

You mean like Castle Ravenloft and Wrath of Ashardalon board games? Or how about the comic book series? Oh wait:

Children's books and board games? Interesting. Actually sorry no, no interest in those unfortunately. How about merchandising something the players who know the brand already (ie the only people who would probably care) could appreciate?

...huh. Well what exactly do you want then? Lunchboxes? More books? There's not a lot of room here.

(Also, you know that they have to think about bringing new business in as well as provide retention, right? Just merchandising to the people who've already "bought in" is the worst way to do business.)

Create a suite for DM's to use with a laptop at the table. Digitize EVERYTHING so that a DM needs only his laptop to play. Why is this so incredibly difficult?

You mean like the character builder, compendium, adventure tools, and VT that are currently in development? Sure, they're not feature rich yet, but digital development is a process, not an end product. I rather like the fact that we get at least a portion of the tools to work with as they continue to make them into what they'd like them to be, rather than having nothing and them continuing to say "We're working on it guys, promise! You'll have tools eventually!" and waiting for a single, perfected result.

As for it being difficult, there's no question that what development staff they have is probably very overworked, understaffed, and underbudgeted. If Trevor Kidd is to be believed, this again is a Hasbro suit problem more than a WotC problem; they're caught between a rock and a hard place, as they don't have a solid enough product to justify more manpower and don't have the manpower to produce a more solid product.

I guess you didn't get the memo.

DDI subscribers have a thread. It's long. It contains all of the arguments on why they *cancelled* their subscription after the old CB was killed.

The new CB is slick? Are you just trolling or... really??

Right, a thread that was created as a knee-jerk reaction to the first iteration of the wCB, from which we've already come pretty far. Clearly a compelling argument.


It's also slightly ironic -- most of your "Account" idea is exactly what DDI is now. The only serious differences are that it's not offline, which goes back to the piracy matter which I covered earlier, and that you're paying for a suite of information instead of cherry picking -- but cherry picking almost always comes at a premium, and for a game like this where no single element exists in a vacuum it's counterproductive. Even if you don't play a barbarian, having some knowledge about them is useful so you can more effectively play alongside one, or DM for one.

D&D is the sum of its parts, not a collection of individual entities that exist independently and separately from each other, and can't be effectively treated as such.
 
Last edited:


Wow... I fully expected to check the date of this post to see that this was a necro'd thread from 18 months ago. Cause goodness knows that's how long these same exact complaints about errata have been made over and over and over again.

No one ever tells people to use the Search function and check to see if the subject about 4E you plan to rant about has already been written previously and much more cleverly in an earlier thread... but maybe we should start.
 

I think 4e probably needed another 6-9 months of playtesting - proper playtesting, not just 1 hour encounters - to bed it in, identifying issues they initially screwed up like the amount of damage PCs & monsters should be doing by level, what skill DCs by level should look like, how skill challenges should work (I'm not sure they can have playtested skill challenges at all). If they had nailed down those big things prior to release then the errata would be fairly trivial errata, not major rules changes that disgruntle the player base left with near-obsolete books. They should probably have aimed for a Christmas 2008 release.
Full agreement. I've also always thought that 4e would have greatly benefited by a longer development/testing cycle.
 

My other two cents: When we were promised before release that we would all be getting digital PDF versions of our books, I was thrilled. How cool would it be to ALWAYS have all of the errata in the books you bought? I remember the plan being something like you input a code from inside your book for your updates to your PDF. How awesome was that idea?

That was floated as a possibility for DDI. Shortly after it was cancelled as being far too unwieldy and hard to control, both on the WotC side as well as at the LGS side.
 

People must have forgotten how errata was handled in 3e.

This is true. It was a free downloadable PDF.

Should be pointed out that sometimes weird things happened (see the Tome of Battle errata: half of the document is actually the Complete Mage errata).

Never changed, AFAIK. A very big "screw you customer".
 

Why not both?

Free access for your books OR a monthly fee?

I like the subscription model. I like the new online tool(s). The old builder was good, but i can perfectly see why it is cancelled. I can go everywhere i want, install silverlight in a few secs and use it.

The old builder used microsoft network or how that damned thing is called that slowed my computer down and made fast installation on other computers very very unfriendly.

So I really wished they had done online applications from the beginning. Even the new monster viewer is not bad per say. It is just not what was announced. I hope someone has been made on head shorter by now.
 

The point of my thread is just to say that we have all the technology sitting here, and has been for years, to run D&D so much better than we are at present. Wizards needs to find a way to allow players and DM's alike to sit down at a gaming table with a laptop and play as we always have. To me it's more paranoia than anything else that's keeping this from a reality.

I agree with that. I think it would be awesome if they had more money diverted to their digital division, and were able to rebuild their approach from the ground up with digital products in mind. But I also don't think it is easy to just make happen, especially with the expenses lost on the original DDI contract work - basically, I don't think Hasbro is willing to invest the resources needed to fully reinvent their business process. I don't think it is paranoia alone that is getting in the way.

I'm simply not buying books that are rushed to print before being properly fixed. I'm not asking for perfect. Just asking for a little higher standard. I think you hit the nail in the head when you said they're slowing down instead of rushing out products. That was my point. I didn't realize that was happening now. Maybe there will be less errata because of it.

Hopefully, yeah. But like I said - these sorts of errors have shown up throughout the history of the game. They aren't something new. Ignoring them instead of fixing them - as happened in 3.0/3.5 - isn't an approach I'm a fan of.

I agree that avoiding them entirely is the ideal. And there are definitely elements I see that I shake my head at and wonder how they got through. But some will always creep in there, and better for them to fix them than to not do so.

Despite the 123 pages argument, you also forget that these changes have occurred slowly over the years since release. This isn't a one shot deal. It's not like I bought my core books and only had to make one change. It's an ongoing thing and a nagging annoyance that is completely unnecessary. As I said all the books are in digital format on their computers. The work has been mostly done. Let me buy a copy digitally and stop worrying about me passing it out to others. All the books are and will forever be available to pirates.

These seem two different goals. Whether you have a digital copy or not, errata will still happen if stuff needs fixing. If your concern is that you just want an easy digital reminder of what changes have happened... isn't that what we have?

I don't mean sell random stuff. That's the opposite of what I was saying. Board games and children's books seems random to me. Why not produce more official D&D material that we can actually use that are non-book? Miniatures was a fair step, even though I don't buy them personally, but they seem to be making a profit off them.

Actually, I think they have closed the minis line because they weren't making a profit, even after reinventing the line several times to try and find something that worked.

The board games have been a huge success, from what I understand. And I'm not sure why you see it as random - board games are something existing gamers can enjoy, but also something that can bring in new gamers. That's exactly the sort of product that is great for the game in the long run.

Accessories and such are nice, but I don't think there is as much a market for them as you believe.

Slick you say? Well, from one single thread alone on the WotC own message boards, there are 52 pages of people who tend to disagree with you.

The majority of those reasons involve the roll-out of the product, the poor communication involved, and the numerous bugs at the time of release. Most of those bugs have been addressed. More additions are still needed - more character sheets, more customization, for example - but what is there is no longer nonfunctional like it was at launch.

I believe this is the thread you were referring to. Yes, many complaints about the online character builder. The majority of which are from months ago, when it was launched. Dannager is calling in slick based on what it is capable of right now - and a thread of complaints about the buggy version from 5 months ago really isn't all that relevant.
 

How about this? Create an 'account' that people can log into. They buy a book, either digitally or hard copy (remember to always give people both choices) and they input their code. Now that account has that book locked into their profile. From there on, errata are updated digitally for that individual. Once that person has purchased that book they can use it as they could in Character Builder. The mistake (thought I'm not complaining) in the old CB was that ALL new books were available. In my opinion there should only be books available that you've actually bought.

This part is completely ridiculous. So, if someone wants to use a single feat from a book without manual editing of their character sheet, they need to buy a physical copy of the book? And each player in a group needs their own copy if they have their own account? That's not exactly going to incentivize each person into paying for their own account.
 

Remove ads

Top