[rant] Something I realized about the d20 system...

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Very recently, I was making some off-the-cuff homebrew material for a d20 version of Fred Perry's Gold Digger comic. However, even using the various bits and pieces of d20-related material he'd posted on the web and in a few comics, I found myself rapidly getting frustrated by how much the system didn't seem to accomodate things from the comic.

The d20 system's greatest strength, to me, is that is can support a large amount of fairly in-depth rules while still maintaining a large degree of flexibility. However, while driving myself crazy with my personal project, I realized that there's one canon in the system that it doesn't seem to be able to do without:

All power is relative, and always measured on a linear, step-progression scale.

What this basically means is that everything is tied down to the system of levels/hit dice. If you want a character to grow more powerful, in any way at all, they need to advance their levels/hit dice, and the only way to do this is on the step-based scale (built with experience points). Level 1 leads to level 2, level 2 leads to level 3, etc. You can't have a character that has the BAB of a 50th-level character, but the hit points of a 1st-level character. There are a few things that try and sidestep this rule. Templates can offer an immediate jump in power. But even those have a "pay me later" feature built in, thanks to level adjustments.

The reason I'm ranting about this is because the aforementioned conversion project drove this limitation home pretty hard. Gina, the main character in GD, lives on modern-day Earth, but has technology so advanced that it'd still be beyond conventional science centuries from now. However, there's no way to justify giving her an Intelligence score of 40 in the d20 system; she doesn't have magic items for bonuses, and the rest of her abilities aren't developed enough to give her the ridiculous amount of levels she'd need to boost her Intelligence that high naturally. Other than giving her a seriously-overpowered template, there doesn't seem to be any recourse.

Has anyone else run into this problem? Did you ever want a character who was extremely powerful in one very narrow approach, and found that the d20 system wouldn't let you do that? How did you answer that?
 

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give her a unique class or something only for her. Bending the rules for NPCs is a find RPG tradition.

and why does she need a 40 int? just have her make the inventions.
 

Alzrius said:
Very recently, I was making some off-the-cuff homebrew material for a d20 version of Fred Perry's Gold Digger comic. However, even using the various bits and pieces of d20-related material he'd posted on the web and in a few comics, I found myself rapidly getting frustrated by how much the system didn't seem to accomodate things from the comic.

The d20 system's greatest strength, to me, is that is can support a large amount of fairly in-depth rules while still maintaining a large degree of flexibility. However, while driving myself crazy with my personal project, I realized that there's one canon in the system that it doesn't seem to be able to do without:

All power is relative, and always measured on a linear, step-progression scale.

What this basically means is that everything is tied down to the system of levels/hit dice. If you want a character to grow more powerful, in any way at all, they need to advance their levels/hit dice, and the only way to do this is on the step-based scale (built with experience points). Level 1 leads to level 2, level 2 leads to level 3, etc. You can't have a character that has the BAB of a 50th-level character, but the hit points of a 1st-level character. There are a few things that try and sidestep this rule. Templates can offer an immediate jump in power. But even those have a "pay me later" feature built in, thanks to level adjustments.

The reason I'm ranting about this is because the aforementioned conversion project drove this limitation home pretty hard. Gina, the main character in GD, lives on modern-day Earth, but has technology so advanced that it'd still be beyond conventional science centuries from now. However, there's no way to justify giving her an Intelligence score of 40 in the d20 system; she doesn't have magic items for bonuses, and the rest of her abilities aren't developed enough to give her the ridiculous amount of levels she'd need to boost her Intelligence that high naturally. Other than giving her a seriously-overpowered template, there doesn't seem to be any recourse.

Has anyone else run into this problem? Did you ever want a character who was extremely powerful in one very narrow approach, and found that the d20 system wouldn't let you do that? How did you answer that?

I would try D20 Modern. The massive damage system makes characters a bit more fragile, you could try giving her Smart levels instead of a way-too-high Int score, and it assumes you don't have magic items. (Adding magic items actually hurts Modern game balance.)

But there's no way of balancing high tech :(
 

One thing I'd really like to see from someone who knows the game inside and out is a CR adjustment table for loot.

The science-fiction items are essentially magic items for all intents and purposes. What EL is a 2nd level character with loot appropriate for a level 30 character? I sure don't know, but it's somewhere between 2 and 30, right?

I'd also like it to see the opposite. What EL is a level 10 character who only has a bronze dagger or whatever?

Anyway, I'd buy such a product in a heartbeat.
 

You know, you want BESM d20. The 'Anime SRD' is available online - google around for it. Given the anime roots of Gold Digger, this would probably work pretty well.
 

Without context, I don't really understand what you want.

It seems like you're saying you have a character who has super-powered items (tech or magic, same diff), but you want to define her as having a super-high Intelligence.

Which is it? Is she uber-smart (able to figure things out faster than anyone) or does she have uber-gear (better laser guns than anyone else)? Those seem to be completely different characteristics, so I'm not getting why you're using the former to model the latter.
 

Alzrius said:
The reason I'm ranting about this is because the aforementioned conversion project drove this limitation home pretty hard. Gina, the main character in GD, lives on modern-day Earth, but has technology so advanced that it'd still be beyond conventional science centuries from now. However, there's no way to justify giving her an Intelligence score of 40 in the d20 system; she doesn't have magic items for bonuses, and the rest of her abilities aren't developed enough to give her the ridiculous amount of levels she'd need to boost her Intelligence that high naturally. Other than giving her a seriously-overpowered template, there doesn't seem to be any recourse.
What's wrong with giving her a seriously-overpowered template? Having ultra-high tech items does make you seriously more powerful than anyone else.
 

Alzrius said:
The reason I'm ranting about this is because the aforementioned conversion project drove this limitation home pretty hard. Gina, the main character in GD, lives on modern-day Earth, but has technology so advanced that it'd still be beyond conventional science centuries from now. However, there's no way to justify giving her an Intelligence score of 40 in the d20 system; she doesn't have magic items for bonuses, and the rest of her abilities aren't developed enough to give her the ridiculous amount of levels she'd need to boost her Intelligence that high naturally. Other than giving her a seriously-overpowered template, there doesn't seem to be any recourse.

Has anyone else run into this problem? Did you ever want a character who was extremely powerful in one very narrow approach, and found that the d20 system wouldn't let you do that? How did you answer that?

To hell with the rules. If I want a person to be brilliantly skilled in something but otherwise mundane and not special, I'll make them that way. I'm not going to have the best weaver in the kingdom by virtue of the level system have better skill at killing people (BAB) than 9/10 of the king's army. That's silly. If I just want to have someone be better at something I'll just give them a nonspecific bonus.

Johan the greatest beer maker in the world isn't going to be able to take three dozen arrows in his chest that would have killed any of the professional soldiers in his city. Nor by virtue of the level system that allows him to have such a great skill rank in profession 'beer maker' should he be uniformly able to outspar people specifically trained in fighting etc.
 
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Mutants and Masterminds addresses this issue relatively well with it's power level system, while still being fundamentally the same game. It was made just for this comic/hero kind of thing.
 


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