[rant] Something I realized about the d20 system...

[Alzrius]

Thanks to everyone who's replied so far.

In regards to using M&M or BESM d20, I just got the newest versions of both of those at Gen Con, so I'm currently looking over them. I do think they have potential (since they use point-buy systems) to solve this problem (at least somewhat), but I'm somewhat dubious about using them. This isn't because I don't think they'd work, but I'm slightly concerned about how easy to use they are in other areas.

Certain parts of GD just seem to lend themselves better to certain d20 styles. It has, for example, a realm that seems very D&D-esque (e.g. medieval lifestyle and weapons, fantasy races, magic, etc.), and as such seems like it'd be done better with d20 Fantasy (or something similar, such as Iron Heroes)...which could lead to compatibility problems if I use M&M for the part of it set in the modern world. Likewise, just using M&M for the fantasy realm also may be doable, but having to make M&M stats for, say, trolls there when there are already d20 Fantasy stats for them seems to be a bit much.

In regards to the people who wondered why I suggested a 40 Intelligence in the first place...I admit, many of you have a point. She could just have extremely high skill ranks/bonuses in skills that represent the hard sciences, languages, medicine, etc. However, this goes back to the same problem...that'd require a large amount of skill points, which necessitate quite a few levels, and a high Intelligence score. I suppose, however, they could be levels in something like the Specialist (from Four Color to Fantasy), which gives truckloads of skill points, but virtually no combat abilities.

 

[Dragonblade]

<copy, save as>

Wow, thanks, Dragonblade. Even if that's not right on, it's more of an eyeball than I've seen so far!

Thanks. It was something I tinkered with a couple years ago when I was thinking about running a low magic game world. When I DM, I usually favor a more high magic world so I never really got back to it.

People wishing to mix Iron Heroes with standard D&D classes, may find it helpful as a rough guide to judging standard D&D characters vs. Iron Heroes characters. Or helpful if they plan on giving magic items to Iron Heroes characters and want a rough idea of what it does to their CR.

It is of course a rough approximation. Given the tightly integrated nature of magical gear, character level and CR in the core rules, there really isn't any good way to come up with a perfect CR valuation when you start separating those elements.

 

[I'm A Banana]

However, this goes back to the same problem...that'd require a large amount of skill points, which necessitate quite a few levels, and a high Intelligence score.

Well, for my milage, I'd think of what kind of skill checks she's going to need to make on a "regular" basis.

Take Quasqueton's post, for instance. It's a second-level character with a +15 in one skill, derived from ranks, synergy, and feats. That's a VERY GOOD skill check, three times the level of the "average well-trained person." They can do average in their sleep. Some things that a +15 in various skills will let you do with an average 10 (or by taking 10)

-- Balance on a surface less than 2 inches wide. That's balancing on a grape, or a dog collar.

-- Regularly Bluff people into believing that they are a polymorphed Llamasu and therefore are trustworthy.

-- Climb accross a cieling using only their hands

-- Make someone who is unfriendly (inslutling, misleading, and denegrating you) friendly (supporting, priaising, and talking freely with you)

-- Disguise yourself as someone's dead husband

-- Make any animal, no matter how wild or untrained, obey and understand commands

-- Jump on top of someone's head (and Balance there, if Balance is high enough)

-- Hear a cat stalking you

-- Gain a national reputation from a single performance

-- Tumble through the ranks of an enemy army

-- Swim in a violent storm

-- Persuade a dragon to release you from captivity

-- Discover the power behind the throne in a city

An average result of 25 is pretty impressive. And that's at 2nd level. A few more synergy bonses, a few more +2/+2 feats, perhaps a special class feature that just gives skill bonuses, or a "magic-worth" item that does so (At 3rd level, a dedicated character could afford a +5 competence bonus in a skill and not be unbalanced).

How high of a rank does she need? How many skills? 10/level? 8? 20? How many different Knowledge or Craft skills does she really demonstrate?

 

[Alzrius]

Well, for my milage, I'd think of what kind of skill checks she's going to need to make on a "regular" basis.

Take Quasqueton's post, for instance. It's a second-level character with a +15 in one skill, derived from ranks, synergy, and feats. That's a VERY GOOD skill check

Yes...a little TOO good. Let's break that down further:

Johan the greatest beer maker
Human Expert 2
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 11
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 10

AC: 10
HP: 7

Skills: Craft (Brewing) +15, Profession (Brewmeister) +8 [gives synergy bonus to craft], Knowledge (Beer) 5 [gives synergy bonus to craft], ?, ?, ?

Feats: Skill Focus (Brewing), Brewer's Nose [+2 to two brewing skills]

Let's start from the beginning. A 2nd-level character can have a maximum of 5 ranks in Craft (brewing), since that's his level + 3. Since it's an Intelligence-based skill, he gets a +1 bonus from his Intelligence. So far that's +6. However, the Profession skill does not give synergy bonuses, so that's out. Likewise, there is no Knowledge (Beer) skill (and there are no Knowledge skills that give bonuses to Craft anyway), so there's also no synergy bonus there. You can take Skill Focus for Craft (bewing), for another +3, but I've never seen the Brewer's Nose feat before.

So, altogether, we have a +9, not a +15 (unless I really missed something).

How high of a rank does she need? How many skills? 10/level? 8? 20? How many different Knowledge or Craft skills does she really demonstrate?

Off the top of my head, a lot. This girl, in a few hours, made a suit of mecha armor after being shut in an old armory with only a few old weapons and armor (said weapons and armor are D&D-style ones...e.g. axes, plate mail, etc.). She seems to be able to deceipher almost any language easily, builds incredible mecha and devices like force-field generators, as well as access any new technology she comes across fairly easily. She's qualified as a medical doctor. She seems to know even the esoteric history of virtually every culture on Earth, and that's just what I vaguely recall.

The problem isn't that things from this comic tend to be overpowered, it's that they're overpowered in relatively narrow areas, and weak in others. Although, as people mentioned, some of the point-buy d20 systems may work better for this.

 

[Zappo]

Off the top of my head, a lot. This girl, in a few hours, made a suit of mecha armor after being shut in an old armory with only a few old weapons and armor (said weapons and armor are D&D-style ones...e.g. axes, plate mail, etc.). She seems to be able to deceipher almost any language easily, builds incredible mecha and devices like force-field generators, as well as access any new technology she comes across fairly easily. She's qualified as a medical doctor. She seems to know even the esoteric history of virtually every culture on Earth, and that's just what I vaguely recall.

That ain't high skill, that's a superpower. Crafting advanced tech armor from nothing with d20 Craft rules would take weeks even to an Epic crafter, and IRL would be outright impossible regardless of technical knowledge. I still think that some kind of custom PrC or overpowered template (with appropriate CR modification) would be appropriate.

 

[Andor]

I feel I need to point out that there is nothing inherently balanced about d20, anymore than there is in any level based system. Rifts is level based too and you'll never hear anyone (Except KS) claim it's balanced.

d20 simply holds balance up as a design goal and so people try to make it so. But it does vary by system. A Spycraft Soldier or an Iron Heros Man-at-Arms is flatly superior to a DnD Fighter.

If you want characters who are really strong in a particular field (And I agree that jury-rigging mecha out of scrap iron is a super-power) then give them a custom class. Or use a hyper flexible system like BESM d20. Honestly it sounds like you want to use the hero system, but if you insist on d20, don't get hung up on it's conventions. Frex, the Thief class from Iron Heros have a different skill cap (level + 5) than any other class anywhere in d20. And the world has not ended. For that matter if it's only a particular NPC you're worried about, just give her the stats/powers you think appropriate and an asterix in her stat block indicating that she breaks the rules and your PCs will never be that cool. ;-)

 

[Quasqueton]

That ain't high skill, that's a superpower.

Quoted for truth.

Quasqueton

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, that's not normal skill ranks by any means...

Crafting mecha could probably be done with something like an item creation feat. The knowledge sounds like she probably has Badic Knowledge/Lore, plus maxxed out Heal, Knowledge (history), and maybe Knowledge (local) with a feat or class ability that lets her treat anyplace in the world as "local".

Let's start from the beginning. A 2nd-level character can have a maximum of 5 ranks in Craft (brewing), since that's his level + 3. Since it's an Intelligence-based skill, he gets a +1 bonus from his Intelligence. So far that's +6. However, the Profession skill does not give synergy bonuses, so that's out. Likewise, there is no Knowledge (Beer) skill (and there are no Knowledge skills that give bonuses to Craft anyway), so there's also no synergy bonus there. You can take Skill Focus for Craft (bewing), for another +3, but I've never seen the Brewer's Nose feat before.

Well, synergy bonses and feats and skills are in the hands of the designer/DM, ulitmately. They are the slightly-more-rules-friendly way of breaking the mold. A few +2/+2 feats, a few new skills and/or synergies...nothin' out of the mold, truly.

 

[jcfiala]

Let's start from the beginning. A 2nd-level character can have a maximum of 5 ranks in Craft (brewing), since that's his level + 3. Since it's an Intelligence-based skill, he gets a +1 bonus from his Intelligence. So far that's +6. However, the Profession skill does not give synergy bonuses, so that's out. Likewise, there is no Knowledge (Beer) skill (and there are no Knowledge skills that give bonuses to Craft anyway), so there's also no synergy bonus there. You can take Skill Focus for Craft (bewing), for another +3, but I've never seen the Brewer's Nose feat before.

So, altogether, we have a +9, not a +15 (unless I really missed something).

You missed the 'Brewer's Nose' feat, which gave a +2 to Craft[Brewing]. That's a +11, and now 'Taking 10' means he creates some darn fine beer without trying hard.

And I'll call you on the Knowledge(Beer) skill - There's no such skill in D&D, because D&D's only interest in beer is how much of it you have to drink before the guy in the corner of the bar gives you his next mission. If we were playing a game based on cooking (Iron Chef: D20) or a game based on, oh, Hobbits (The Hobbit: D20), then I could see new Knowledge skills being created with specific synergies. Because that's what those games would consider important. (Heck, if I had a player in my games who wanted to have Knowledge(Beer) at +5 so he could get a +2 Synergy bonus to his Craft(Brewing), I'd let him have it anyway.)

Remember folks: D&D != D20.

 

[billd91]

You missed the 'Brewer's Nose' feat, which gave a +2 to Craft[Brewing]. That's a +11, and now 'Taking 10' means he creates some darn fine beer without trying hard.

And I'll call you on the Knowledge(Beer) skill - There's no such skill in D&D, because D&D's only interest in beer is how much of it you have to drink before the guy in the corner of the bar gives you his next mission. If we were playing a game based on cooking (Iron Chef: D20) or a game based on, oh, Hobbits (The Hobbit: D20), then I could see new Knowledge skills being created with specific synergies. Because that's what those games would consider important. (Heck, if I had a player in my games who wanted to have Knowledge(Beer) at +5 so he could get a +2 Synergy bonus to his Craft(Brewing), I'd let him have it anyway.)

Remember folks: D&D != D20.

I would do it as well. I don't think the knowledge skills in D&D 3.5 are meant to be comprehensive. They're just a specified set of appropriate ones. I'd say add to them as the players inspire.