Rapid Shot analysis by Sean Reynolds

[Quinn]

Sean's analysis actually favors rapid shot because it does not factor in the probability of hitting with both shots. A better analysis for this type of problem would be an average damage calculation. For instances at high BAB, Sean shows a low advantage for Rapid shot, yet in terms of damage output it is more favorable. If I get a chance, I'll post this different way of looking at Rapid Shot.

Kugar

It also assumes that every attack being made will be a full attack action. Weapon Focus applies to every attack. I'm not even sure it's fair to compare weapon focus to rapid shot.

 

[kengar]

What about making Rapid Shot specific to a given weapon (i.e. Longbow) like Weapon Focus? The idea being that the character has practiced that motion of drawing and firing quickly with a particular weapon. The "skill" of rapidly firing sling bullets is not even close to the way you'd shoot a longbow rapidly in terms of loading, aiming, etc.

 

[Quinn]

What about making Rapid Shot specific to a given weapon (i.e. Longbow) like Weapon Focus? The idea being that the character has practiced that motion of drawing and firing quickly with a particular weapon. The "skill" of rapidly firing sling bullets is not even close to the way you'd shoot a longbow rapidly in terms of loading, aiming, etc.

I don't know if this would be a balancing factor. More often than not, a PC will have his chosen weapon. It would take special factors such as disarm, or campaign considerations like "Your character is captured and stripped of his weapons before being thrown in the Slave Pits" to cause this to come into play.

 

[Kugar]

The numbers are blow. The poorly formatted table shows the increase in average damage output gained by using Rapid Shot (i.e. 100% means double damage). This table only shows the first attack and 2 attacks for rapid shot. It could be expanded for iterative attacks and critical hits, but those numbers are system dependent.

AB 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
1 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0% -33.3% 0.0% 100.0%
2 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0% -33.3% 0.0%
3 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0% -33.3%
4 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0%
5 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0%
6 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3%
7 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9%
8 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0%
9 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6%
10 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0%
11 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6%
12 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7%
13 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2%
14 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4%
15 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3%
16 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0%
17 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5%
18 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8%
19 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9%
20 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5%

 

[El_Gringo]

If you were to nerf Rapid Shot, you might as well nerf Cleave as well. Cleave doesn't even have a penalty, just a situational requirement.

 

[Krug]

The numbers are blow. The poorly formatted table shows the increase in average damage output gained by using Rapid Shot (i.e. 100% means double damage). This table only shows the first attack and 2 attacks for rapid shot. It could be expanded for iterative attacks and critical hits, but those numbers are system dependent.

AB 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
1 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0% -33.3% 0.0% 100.0%
2 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0% -33.3% 0.0%
3 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0% -33.3%
4 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0% 0.0%
5 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3% 20.0%
6 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9% 33.3%
7 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0% 42.9%
8 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6% 50.0%
9 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0% 55.6%
10 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6% 60.0%
11 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7% 63.6%
12 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2% 66.7%
13 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4% 69.2%
14 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3% 71.4%
15 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0% 73.3%
16 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5% 75.0%
17 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8% 76.5%
18 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9% 77.8%
19 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5% 78.9%
20 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 100.0% 89.5%

I still think that using college students will lead to more accurate results. More fun too.

 

[Henry]

I'll leave the theoretical analysis to Krug; all I have to offer is practical experience.

In all cases of the "extra attack at -2" option (flurry of blows, rapid shot, two weapon fighting), our group's experience has been that it is only worth it when the chance to hit is around 60% or greater. (For low levels and low abilities, this is around AC 12 to 15, or worse.) So many cases have come up of PC's trying to hit a higher AC target, and missing by one or two points, that it disparages players from using it. If I am fighting lots of creatures with low ac (the proverbial "mook") then it is a boon, and ends a fight quicker. If I am fighting a few tougher opponents with higher AC, then I want every bonus point I can get, and NO penalties. Same goes for Power Attack.

 

[mmu1]

The melee fighter can however only worry about one attribute Strength to improve both to hit and damage.

An archer however finds his Dexterity only adds to his chance to hit. If he does want to increase damage then he needs to have a high strength as well, plus needs to spend money on a new bow. so thats 'a huge disadvantage' to a archer.

Spend money on a new bow? Why? And how's that different from any class having to spend money on new weapons as they level up?

And the whole "Archers need two high abilities, melee fighters only one." doesn't really hold true... Last time I checked, Strength didn't add to AC, Initiative and Reflex saves, not to mention that the fact they don't get hit nearly as often allows archers to get away with a lower Constitution.

 

[mmu1]

I'll leave the theoretical analysis to Krug; all I have to offer is practical experience.

In all cases of the "extra attack at -2" option (flurry of blows, rapid shot, two weapon fighting), our group's experience has been that it is only worth it when the chance to hit is around 60% or greater. (For low levels and low abilities, this is around AC 12 to 15, or worse.) So many cases have come up of PC's trying to hit a higher AC target, and missing by one or two points, that it disparages players from using it. If I am fighting lots of creatures with low ac (the proverbial "mook") then it is a boon, and ends a fight quicker. If I am fighting a few tougher opponents with higher AC, then I want every bonus point I can get, and NO penalties. Same goes for Power Attack.

Except that it doesn't work quite the same for archers, except at the very low levels. Assuming they have access to decent equipment, in 90% of cases their to hit bonus is two points higher than that of a melee fighter with equivalent stats - courtesy of MW Arrows (or Magic Weapon) and Point Blank shot. Which means that an archer using Rapid Shot is effectively getting two shots instead of one with no real penalty compared to someone using flurry of blows or Two Weapon Fighting.

And don't forget than an archer gets to take a full attack a lot more often than a melee fighter.

 

[BiggusGeekus@Work]

... and the flip side of that is all those magic arrows get expensive. Even if you have someone casting MW/GMW, you're still using up a spell that could be used for heals or whatnot.

So Rapid Shot is slightly more resource-intensive.