D&D 4E Rapid Shot Question

[Fury of the Tempest]

Okay, so the 4E Hunter class has the power 'Rapid Shot'. Which gives me a -2 penalty to attack, in order to make a ranged basic attack with a weapon against all enemies in a Burst 1 within the Ranged Weapon's range. Now, obviously, if I have other Ranged Basic Attacks that use a weapon. Like, say, the Seeker's At-Will Powers Biting Swarm or Grappling Spirits. I can use them in place of these basic attacks. Effectively turning them into a Burst 1, albeit at the cost of accuracy.

What I'm not 100% on, however, is what it means by 'With a Weapon'. Does this mean that the Ranged Basic Attack has to 'Weapon' Keyword. Or does it simply mean that I need to use a Weapon in order to make those attacks? Because if its the latter. Can't I potentially pick up Moonbow Dedicate, and use a Shortbow as an Implement in order to make the Ranged Basic Attack?

I think that the answer is the former. That I can only use Rapid Shot with Weapon Keyword attacks. But I'm not 100% sure, hence why I'm asking if the later is also an option. As if it is... Well, I'm going to need to ask another question.

 

[jhingelshod]

I think it's the former too. Comparing the power description (you make a ranged basic attack with a weapon) with other powers in HotFK that lack the weapon keyword, for example the Cavalier's Holy Smite (Trigger: You target an enemy with an at-will weapon attack power), demonstrates the intention. It's just not as explicit as basic attacks don't generally have keywords.
Additionally (and I'm not 100% on this point) I think that a weapon only counts as a weapon if it's used as a weapon and not an implement. Otherwise spells like magic missile would count as ranged weapon attacks if cast using a sword as an implement.

 

[Fury of the Tempest]

Yeah, I figured that was the case as well. Nothing specifically stating it here, but I'm trying not to fall into the Munchkin Fallacy with this. I want to know how much Rapid Shot can potentially be abused or not, and it doesn't seem to be very abusable at all. Maybe by a Half-Elf Seeker, but that seems to be it.

Admittedly, I would have no idea how Divine Bolts would interact with the power even if you could make it work. I'm guessing RAI would likely be that you make the attack against as single-targetted against each enemy. Potentially double-tapping the enemies you are already targetting if your DM is generous about it? Being able to use Rapid Shot to use Divine Bolts 2 or 3 times in a single action, as you please, would kind of be crazy.

Awesome. But crazy.

 

[masteraleph]

1) Note that it doesn't make it a Burst- it makes it up to 9 ranged attacks.

2) RAW, no, you do not need a weapon attack. That's difference between "attack with a weapon" vs. "weapon attack power".

Weapons are always weapons, and if used as an implement, they're still weapons (see Weapons as Implements and vice versa in the Rules Compendium). But using a weapon as an implement does not confer the Weapon keyword onto an attack. The only thing where changing something changes the keyword is damage type. That's why using a sword- or a staff, for that matter- doesn't make an Implement attack a weapon attack. It's also why a Weapon of Speed can fire off Elemental Bolt as a minor action.

3) The thing that makes Divine Bolts questionable is not that it's an implement attack; it's that Rapid Shot requires a "ranged basic attack," and it's not clear that Power of Skill makes Divine Bolts a "ranged basic attack" vs. a ranged attack that is also a basic attack.

4) One interesting Rapid Shot combination- if you have two enemies that could both be targets of Elemental Bolt, you could Rapid Shot, then use Elemental Escalation off of one of the two attacks in order to actually make 2 attacks against one enemy and one against another (because each of the Elemental Bolts are separate attacks).

 

[NotAYakk]

3) The thing that makes Divine Bolts questionable is not that it's an implement attack; it's that Rapid Shot requires a "ranged basic attack," and it's not clear that Power of Skill makes Divine Bolts a "ranged basic attack" vs. a ranged attack that is also a basic attack.

That way leads to madness.

 

[Fury of the Tempest]

Huh. So, while the idea of using Divine Bolts + Rapid Shot in order to hit one or more targets twice with the power as a standard action is subject to debate. The idea of playing an Elementalist Half-Elf and picking up Rapid Shot in order to be able to trade accuracy for the change to hit 2 or more clumped up targets with Elemental Bolt as a single, at-will power works?

That's actually pretty good to know! Even if neither of the Character Builds I'm using is actually able to build such a character. HeroLabs doesn't have the Elementalist, and DDI doesn't let me pick Rapid Shot as a Half-Elf power... plus I'm not entirely a fan of the Essential's classes and how basic they are.

Can't really think of any other classes that might benefit from the combination honestly. Maybe a normal Sorcerer using Dragonfrost? It pushes on hit, so you have some minor battlefield control there.

 

[masteraleph]

You can't pick Rapid Shot as a Half Elf power. What you can do is pick a regular Ranger power for half elf, then take the feat Archery Mastery to swap it out for Rapid Shot. The CB will allow you to do that once you take Versatile Master to make the ranger power a true at will for you; whether that's actually required is debatable.

 

[Fury of the Tempest]

Why can't I pick up Rapid Shot? The Character builder doesn't let you, true. But as far as I can tell, I should be able to do so without needing to pick up Archery Mastery. Rapid Shot is a Level 1 Attack Power from a different class as long as I'm not playing as the Ranger or any of its subclasses. Half-Elf Dilettante lets me pick up any 1st Level Attack Power from a different class.

I don't see any reason why the rules, RAI or RAW, requires me to take an extra feat in order to get access to Rapid Shot.

... On that subject though. Could I potentially use Acolyte Power in order to get access to the Aspect of the Wild stances? They seem to count as Ranger Utility Powers.

 

[masteraleph]

Rapid Shot is NOT a Level 1 Attack power- it's a non-leveled attack power. Many of the Essentials strikers- Scouts, Elementalists, etc.- have very powerful at wills to make up for not getting the encounters/dailies from their parent classes, so to prevent poaching by the parent classes, they have non-leveled attack powers rather than level 1 powers. Hunter is weird in that they created a feat to allow poaching one of the powers. The same thing keeps a Half Elf Avenger from just poaching the Scout's Dual Weapon Attack power, though in theory you can use Paragon Multiclass to pick that up, since PMC was never errataed to require a level 1 power.

 

[Fury of the Tempest]

Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. A Level 1 Attack power follows the Formula of [Class] Attack 1. But Rapid Shot, Aimed Shot and Clever Shot, don't have the '1' at the end of them. So even though they are taken at Level 1. They don't count as Level 1 Attack Powers. That applies to their Stances as well. They don't have any Levels, meaning that Acolyte Power can't grab them, as you select a power of the 'same level or lower'.

And huh... what, is Dual Weapon Attack why people pick up the Paragon Multicass as an Avenger then? Pretty much for that power alone? And from the looks of Paragon Multiclassing, its doesn't say At-Will Attack, it says At-Will Power. Utility Powers are still Powers, so couldn't I paragon Multiclass in order to pick up a Hunter's Stances? Or a stance from a Slayer or Scout for that matter?

... What about Defender's Aura, or are of the Opportunity Actions for a Cavalier, Knight or Berserker? Could I possibly pick those up as well?