Rat Bastards! Help with elemental swarm!

[Psion]

It seems to me that a dungeon full of things that are going to challenge 17th level characters are going to eat earth elementals for breakfast.

And the elementals will alert the unprepared spellcasters etc.

I'd let them derive some advantage from it, but I'd follow the logical consequences of using this type of scouting method.

 

[Nifft]

The important thing is to realize that CR17 bad guys aren't limited to dungeons as protection -- mobility and secrecy become better than walls at this level.

Also, remember Heisenberg's principle.

The Elemental Swarm should find lots of interesting people, places and things... none of which remain static. So, if the PCs send elementals to kill the BBEG, the elementals should fail -- because the BBEG teleports or plane shifts out, and is now casting divinations to see who tried to kill him.

-- N

 

[Radiating Gnome]

It makes me very uncomfortable when DMs start banning spells, simply because the DM hadn't see the tactic coming. As others have said, by the time the PCs are casting 9th level spells, dungeons are probably not the most effective way to challenge them anymore.

But even at lower levels, your players will surprise you from time to time, and you should enjoy that, not start forbidding things left and right. At the same time, the technique should become part of your arsenal, too -- and enemies that are familiar with the PCs should be prepared for tricks they've used in the past, and be ready to counter them.

-rg

 

[Whimsical]

I love recommending Design Secrets: High-Level Adventures by Monte Cook for anyone who is running higher level adventures. It's a different game at high levels and you need to be ready for it. And this is the article that had it all click for me in my head, and I learned how to stop worrying and love the bomb.

At 17th level, an entire dungeon is a "room", teleport & plane shift is the "hallway", and the entire multiverse is the "dungeon". Think BIG!

 

[Vaxalon]

Here's another way to deal with monsters being sent as scouts...

Take their character sheets (just for a bit) and hand out "character sheets" with the elementals on them. Create slight differences so that the players will have a little individuality to them.

Now have them explore the dungeon, AS those elementals. Let them swim around. Let them get hacked to pieces by pit fiends.

You still get to use the dungeon.

 

[WizarDru]

At the risk of saying "Me ,too."....well, what he said.

The dungeon for a 17th level party should be something like the palace of the Githyanki Queen, the lair of an evil wizard on the elemental plane of fire, or something equally exotic and challenging. For a traditional dungeon, they'll shuffle right on through, even with lots of restrictions. And heck, that's what they're supposed to do...they clawed their way up to 17th+, let 'em flex their muscles.

Then slap them with Advanced Psionic Roper of Legend, and watch as thost elementals go *pop*. I got one from Blackdirge I could lend you...cheap.

Also, note the various restricitions on the spell, and make them true penalties. It takes 10 minutes to get the large elementals, 20 to get the huge and 30 to get the great elemental. That's a long time, and they take up a lot of room. A dictum spell will get rid of many of them, as will dismissal effects, most likely Banishment, which dismisses 2HD/caster level of extraplanar beings. There are plenty of ways to get rid of the elementals, if that's your bag, baby. But I'd be very, very careful about how you do it.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Gee, Wil, which game did this happen in?

Actually, I've been thinking about what we did to your dungeon, and I have an idea that might have prevented at least some of the havoc we wreaked. I'm not sure how spoiler-free you want to keep this thread, though. Would you prefer I e-mailed you, or should I go ahead and present the ideas here?

 

[diaglo]

.. go ahead and present the ideas here?

it is the holiday season and the rest of us love presents.

 

[MerakSpielman]

What, your dungeon was carved out of stone in the ground, not a maze of Walls of Force on the Negative Energy Plane? What kind of cakewalks are they sending 17+ level characters on these days?

 

[DrNilesCrane]

It makes me very uncomfortable when DMs start banning spells, simply because the DM hadn't see the tactic coming. As others have said, by the time the PCs are casting 9th level spells, dungeons are probably not the most effective way to challenge them anymore.

But even at lower levels, your players will surprise you from time to time, and you should enjoy that, not start forbidding things left and right. At the same time, the technique should become part of your arsenal, too -- and enemies that are familiar with the PCs should be prepared for tricks they've used in the past, and be ready to counter them.

-rg

I'll jump on the "Me too" bandwagon and definitely agree with this. It can be a real challenge to DM a high level adventure, but I bet 99.9% of the players would rather see their character's opponents counter by the rules than the DM taking the easy way out.

From the DM's side, it can be very tough to anticipate party tactics, especially when they have spells like this at their command, but if the party surprises the DM and trashes something like a dungeon...what's the real problem? The players have fun having out smarted the bad guys and the DM learns a new tactic for the future. Win-win.