Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="nato9" data-source="post: 2540065" data-attributes="member: 23557">Specific Must-Pass AreasI voted 2.  Great setting idea and some cool features, but impossible to beat without cheating and has a DM vs player attitude.  A couple disclaimers for this post: first, though I am disbelieving, this is meant in a friendly conversational tone.  Second, I'm a big big Gygax fan and, like many here, have read 100s of pages of his work.  I just don't agree with these 12 pages. Now then, there are several points in this module I see as unpassable; many of these points MUST be passed to go onwards.  People claim to beat it.  I would like to hear specifics about these must pass points.Looking at my old copy, these are the MUST BE PASSED points that bother me:One of 5, 7, or 9 must be passed (its all linear afterwords):5. Arch of Mist:  What lead you to touch the stones specifically yellow - blue - orange?  If you stand there, they glow yellow - orange - blue.  What lead you to know touching the stones activated it at all?  How was it cleverness?7. Forsaken Prison: How did you know moving all 3 levers up was correct, while down was death?9. Complex of Secret Doors: You actually found the triggers of:      pull down      pivots centrally      pull inward and up at bottom (not top!)      slides up      double panels pull inward      slide left      7 studs - press allDo you always describe how you open secret doors so precisely?  Is that real player skill?10. Great Hall of Spheres: You knew one of the spheres was a secret passage?  Out of 20, you knew which one?  You didn't check say 15 of them and give up?  You knew the arch in here was a trap, even if you succesfully (somehow) figured out the arch in 5?  (Same for the alter in the chapel?)15. Stone Gate: You knew to insert a magic ring, and only a magic ring?  Do you always try inserting your magic rings in holes?  I generally try to keep mine.  Did your DM say something like "its just the right size for a magic ring"?15.5. Concealed Door in Pit Trap:  How exactly did you find this door?  Do you routinely check the walls of pit traps for concealed/secret doors?  Did you check all 7 of the pit traps previous to this one for them, and kept at it, just in case?  Did you check the walls of the pits after this one for doors?19. Mummy Preparation Room: Out of everything else in this room, you recognized that the two half keys in the vats were vital?  How did you find them and ignore everything else?21. Agitated Chamber: Although you are presumably moving slowly and carefully, you didn't stay in this one chamber long enough to roll an odd number and get hit with the tapestries?  How did you know to search in the mummy room long enough to find the key, but knew to get throuh here as quickly as possible?  If you didn't upset the tapestries, how'd you find the yet-another-must-find secret door?23. False/True Door: Out of the 5 false doors in the tomb, you knew this ONE had a secret door behind it?  Did you check every one?  Did you search for a secret door in the floor after every door?24. Adamantite Door: You routinely stick 3 sword blades simultaneously into slots to open doors (the only way)?  What cleverness led you to do this, with no clues?  What if your party (like every one I've ever been in) does not carry a total of 3 swords?  Do you carry 3 of every weapon around, just in case?  Am I unskilled because I don't?25D. Pillared Room / Silver Throne: You figured out to specifically apply the silver end of the scepter to inlay of the crown in the throne?  How did you know?  And why was that clever, while touching the silver end to the crown was wrong?29. Valves of Mithril: You both kept the scepter and knew it was once again the only key to going forward?  Did you somehow know not to take it out of the tomb?  You weren't, as the text states, "foolish" enough to try the, oh, I don't know, KEYS you found earlier?  How did you know to use the silver end before, and the gold end now?  With no clues whatsoever, what great player skill told you this?30. Second False Tomb:  I could see not falling for the first one, but after this one you STILL didn't believe you had finally beaten it?  Do you routinely disbelieve the seeming victories of all your adventures this way?  Also, another must find secret door.32. Secret Door to True Tomb: Even though you weren't foolish enough to use the keys before, how did you know that now they were to be used?  Didn't try the scepter again?33. The Crypt of Acererak: You knew to use the second key (and only that) AND you knew to, specifically, turn "3 times to the right in succession."  With your great player skill.  Then, you knew, with only a FIVE SECOND countdown to react, to get off the rising floor (not, perhaps, ride it upwards) or be "SQUASHED LIKE JELLY AGAINST THE ARCHED ROOF!"33.5. Acerak: Despite no other monster being like this, you knew to use ONLY      forget      shatter      power word kill      vorpal blade      exorcise      dispel evil      holy word      thief slinging gem from cryptWhat lead you to use only those attacks?  How did your party have enough of them?  How did you manage enough of them before being drained?  Ok, maybe I should not include that one, since we all know the famous example of grabbing the treasure and running, so arguably it is not must-pass.REMEMBER: these are only the must pass obstacles.  Many arbitrary death traps are not listed because you don't HAVE to face them.  However its unlikely you would avoid them all, and many are as arbitrary and unlikely to be passed as those listed.But if you claim to beat the module, you had to pass every one of those I just listed.  How?I can believe you are smarter than me.  No problem.I can believe you are a better player than me.  Again, no problem.I cannot believe you passed everything I just listed.  There are too many totally arbitrary, highly specific, and completely ridiculous checkpoints to pass WITH NO CLUES WHATSOEVER.  You did not do this without reading the module or hints from the DM.  Its absurd to claim otherwise; if you disagree, reread some of the things on that list.There is a problem here in tone and motivation.  As asides in the text make clear, it is DM vs players.  A quote from page 4 sums it up: "Cruel, but most entertaining for the DM..."  Its from a mentality wherein the DM finds death and humiliation of players "entertaining."  Isn't DM vs players one of the major signs of low RPG skill?I think the modules popularity springs from its infamy.  Saying you "beat TOH" gives a feeling of toughness and impressiveness.  I think attachment to those feelings is the big motivation.  I think some of that attitude has been conveyed in this thread.  To me, some are like a 12 year old player bragging about his 25th level wizard.I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I just can't see reasonable answers to that whole list.  And every single one has to be passed.</blockquote>

Verification