• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E Rate this spell idea!

Slit518

Adventurer
Spears of Obsidian
3rd-level Conjuration/Transmuation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S, M (a drop of ichor and a sliver of obsidian worth at least 50 GP, both of which must be consumed)
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute
Four obsidian spider-like appendages sprout out from your back. You can use your action to make a melee spell attack with each Spear of Obsidian, which have a reach of 20 feet. The spears deal 1d4 + your casting stat modifier in piercing damage, and an additional 1d4 necrotic damage.
As long as you have at least one Spear of Obsidian you can use your Reaction to grant a +5 bonus to Armor Class, at the beginning of your next turn one Spear of Obsidian is broken.
Enemies can target the Spears of Obsidian, breaking them so the caster can no longer use them. Each spear has Armor Class 12 and 8 hit points. The spears saving throws are the same as the caster's.
At Higher Levels:
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th or higher, you gain one extra Spear of Obsidian, to a max of 10 Spears of Obsidian as a 9th level spell slot.

P.S.
Inspiration was drawn from the movie The Huntsman: Winter's War.

P.S.S.
Edited.

P.S.S.S.
Edited x2
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

My observations and comments, in as orderly a fashion as I can manage:

"You can use your attack action using your spell attack to make one attack with each Spear of Obsidian to a range of 20 feet." should be worded more in-line with what language existing spells use, especially because use of the Attack action implies that a multi-class character with Extra Attack actually gets additional attacks and likely a few other interactions the design of the game aims to avoid because they unbalance things.

Something like "You can use your action to make a melee spell attack with each Spear of Obsidian, which have a reach of 20 feet." if you intend these attacks to be melee attacks, or "You can use your action to make a ranged spell attack with each Spear of Obsidian at a range of 20 feet." if you intend these attacks to be ranged attacks.

As for the damage, as written it is above the recommended damage for a 3rd level spell - so either that should come down significantly, or the level of the spell should be raised (there are guidelines on page 283 of the DMG).

Additionally, the spell shouldn't be dealing as much damage as other spells of its same level and also providing defensive benefits.

Also, the scaling AC bonus: anything higher than a +2 makes this spell better at defense than most of the AC boosting spells, while it still gets offensive potential.

There is also the issue of the reactions to "block" attacks and spells: firstly that isn't a term that is used in the existing rules so it sticks out as undefined, and secondly that what you have done is almost like making a 3rd level spell that does the best damage of any 3rd level spells, gives more long-term AC than shield of faith, and gives you a free counterspell and shield in effect - so it's sort of the power of two 1st level spells, a 3rd level spell, and also a bunch of damage.

Of course, all of these thoughts are assuming that you don't intend upon changing the balance of the game dramatically, and aren't meaning to make this spell the uncontested best spell of its level.
 

AaronofBarbaria's analysis is spot on.

One thing he didn't mention to bring it back into balance is adding a material component with a GP cost that is consumed in the casting. Of course, how much this restores balance will vary based on the actual cost and the generosity of the DM. Also worth noting that most damaging spells don't have high cost, consumed components, so this spell would still be an outlier.
 

Allowing both active blocking of attacks and a boost to AC is basically getting two bites of the cherry defensively. My recommendation would be to pick one or the other, not both.
 

I agree with Aaron - the spell is OP, and he explains why well. The blocking attacks bit is very potent - so much so that if it was the only feature of the spell, it would still be worth using!

That being said, the spell's idea is *very cool*. If you can balance it better, it would be a great spell.
 

I appreciate the support the spell is getting. And I always appreciate Aaron's feedback, as it's usually well thought out.

I'm not usually got on the math/mechanical side of things when it comes to creating spells or such.

My observations and comments, in as orderly a fashion as I can manage:

"You can use your attack action using your spell attack to make one attack with each Spear of Obsidian to a range of 20 feet." should be worded more in-line with what language existing spells use, especially because use of the Attack action implies that a multi-class character with Extra Attack actually gets additional attacks and likely a few other interactions the design of the game aims to avoid because they unbalance things.

Something like "You can use your action to make a melee spell attack with each Spear of Obsidian, which have a reach of 20 feet." if you intend these attacks to be melee attacks, or "You can use your action to make a ranged spell attack with each Spear of Obsidian at a range of 20 feet." if you intend these attacks to be ranged attacks.

Yes, I intend them to be melee attacks. I will change the wording on the spell.

As for the damage, as written it is above the recommended damage for a 3rd level spell - so either that should come down significantly, or the level of the spell should be raised (there are guidelines on page 283 of the DMG).

I am looking at the DMG right now, for one target it states 5d10 damage, which is an average of 27.5 damage to the singular target.
Or, multiple targets which is 6d6, which is an average of 21 damage per target in X area.
Now, when referring to multiple targets, does it refer to AoE spells, spells that roll separate attack rolls for each attack (such as this), or both?
The way I was looking at it, the spell would fall somewhere in-between since each attack is a separate roll.

Additionally, the spell shouldn't be dealing as much damage as other spells of its same level and also providing defensive benefits.

Also, the scaling AC bonus: anything higher than a +2 makes this spell better at defense than most of the AC boosting spells, while it still gets offensive potential.

Perhaps the spell should grant +1 Armor Class per every 3 spell levels? So it's a max of +3 Armor Class if you cast it as a 9th level spell?

There is also the issue of the reactions to "block" attacks and spells: firstly that isn't a term that is used in the existing rules so it sticks out as undefined, and secondly that what you have done is almost like making a 3rd level spell that does the best damage of any 3rd level spells, gives more long-term AC than shield of faith, and gives you a free counterspell and shield in effect - so it's sort of the power of two 1st level spells, a 3rd level spell, and also a bunch of damage.

I was aiming to give the caster a bit more utility. I figured everyone gets one possible Reaction a turn. They would be using the limited resources of their legs to negate attacks. Perhaps they should lose 2 legs per melee attack negated this way? And still lose a number of legs equal to attack spell cast at them? Or should I have it so they can just use their reaction to block Cantrips at the cost of 2 legs? Ray attacks that shoot more than one ray would allow the caster to only negate one ray, while the opposing caster could still him their target with the other ray attacks.

Here is my thought process on why this spell could work, with a few minor tweaks from feedback:
1. Lose the bonus damage from caster's casting stat modifier.
2. Lower Armor Class gain to +1 every 3 spell levels, to a max of +3 Armor Class as a 9th level spell.
3. Make the spell require an Obsidian Gem worth at least 50GP and the drop of Ichor, which are consumed.
4. Allow the use of 2 legs on a Reaction to negate one melee attack or one Cantrip attack, shattering the legs after the Reaction.

Here is my thought process on how combat would play out:
Round 1
Caster casts Spears of Obsidian, only has Move Action and Bonus Action left. Gains option of "negate" one melee attack or Cantrip upon a reaction.
Opposing caster casts Magic Missile on the Obsidian Spears, wiping out 2 of them, leaving only 2 for the caster to possibly use on their next turn.
Fighter runs up to caster, using two attacks to attack the obsidian spears, breaking them, leaving 0 for the caster to use on their turn.
or
Opposing caster casts Fireball, both the caster and the Spears of Obsidian need to make a save. Fireball wipes out all or most of the spears. Caster on their next turn has 0-1 spears to use.
One could argue the spears could potentially draw attacks away from the caster, or give the caster more HP. But they are so fragile and there are some many ways around them, such as melee attacks, ranged attacks, AoE spells (which is the big one), direct damage attacks such as Magic Missile (which the spears are not immune to), etc...

A caster has the lowest Hit-Die, assuming only the d6 caster's could use it. So let's say a caster who can cast 9th level spells casts this spell, it grants them 10 Spears of Obsidian from out of their back. Their Proficiency Bonus is a +6, their casting stat we'll say is a 20, granting a +5, so their attack with each spear should be a +11 to a d20 roll.

Each of the 10 spears would have to roll a successful attack, and if they do hit it's only 2d4 damage if the spell's damage is modified, or 2d4+5 if it is not. So an average of 5 damage a successful hit, to an average of 10 damage a successful hit. This is also not including the round that must cycle before the caster could even use their Spears of Obsidian, so it's possible several of their spears may be broken by the time their turn comes up again. When instead a caster could do more reliable damage with a well placed fireball as a 9th level spell which is 14d6, or 49 average damage to those who fail their save, to 24.5 average damage to those who pass their save, in a 20' radius. That is 64 potential targets, vs 10 potential targets. Guaranteed damage (unless there are things such as perks negating damage or making you immune to fire) vs damage one must roll for.

Mage Armor sets an Arcane Caster's Armor Class to 13 at level 1, and has an 8 hour duration, vs a 1 minute duration.
Shield of Faith is a +2 Armor Class, but it's duration is 10 minutes, vs a 1 minute duration.
Though a 2nd level spell, Barkskin doesn't allow the recipients Armor Class to drop below 16, it's duration is 1 hour.

Counterspell effects those within 60 feet and you must use a spell slot of equal level. You can also attempt to stop a spell of higher level than what you cast by making an ability check. The Reaction to Spears of Obsidian would not only require you to cast a spell of similar level, but also require it to be an attack spell against you, which you must sacrifice x amount of Spears of Obsidian to negate the one attack, instead of stopping a whole spell overall.

So, all-in-all do I find this spell overpowered? After looking over everything, not really. I feel it has a lot of utility potential, doing a lot of little things compared to spells that either do it at greater effect or for a longer duration. The only thing that I saw that could make it potentially overpowered is the caster's casting stat modifier added to the damage rolls, that combined with an attack for each spear. But then again, I don't see any feats/abilities, or even weapon Enchantments that the caster could get that would enhance the spears, vs a fighter for example that could have a +3 sword with the duelist feat, and use their Action Surge (which is a limited well of power just as this spell would be), for an effective 1d8, +2, +3, +5, for 5 attacks.

I'll make some edits, however.
 

Now, when referring to multiple targets, does it refer to AoE spells, spells that roll separate attack rolls for each attack (such as this), or both?
It is sort of both, actually. I have to admit my earlier comment didn't consider the spell appropriately because I was treating it as both multi-target and single-target, but doing so in an inappropriate way by dividing the multi-target damage among each of the attacks.

It seems more appropriate, now that I've realized that error, to make sure that the spell does not exceed the single target damage guideline if used against a single target, but also does not exceed the multiple target damage guideline if spread among as many targets as is possible.

So that means taking the 5d10 single target damage, adding 25% because a die roll going the right way means 0 damage rather than 1/2, and dividing that among the number of attacks granted by the spell - so each attack could have a maximum damage of 15-16 and be within that guideline, if all the spell did was grant these attacks. And that would work because 16 damage maximum is within the 6d6 plus 25% (45) multiple target suggested maximum damage.

Of course, it is still important to make the damage even lower than this if it retains abilities outside of just attacks that deal damage.

Perhaps the spell should grant +1 Armor Class per every 3 spell levels? So it's a max of +3 Armor Class if you cast it as a 9th level spell?
I believe that adhering to a general truth of the 5th edition spell system would be even better than simply reducing the scaling. That general truth being that spells which scale their effects depending on the level they are cast at usually only scale a single trait of the spell, not multiple traits - such as fireball gaining additional dice but not longer range or larger area of effect, bless gaining additional targets but not larger benefit or longer duration, or hunter's mark gaining longer duration but not additional targets or greater damage.

I was aiming to give the caster a bit more utility.
I think the reaction abilities added to the attack and AC abilities push the spell to a higher level than 3rd, even with the limitations relative to the other spells I mentioned.

But then, I don't think that a 3rd level spell that performs as if it were half of a 3rd level spell (counterspell, but only in certain situations and with a stricter effective level limit), more than all of a 2nd level spell (scorching ray), better than one 1st level spell but for shorter time (shield of faith), and entirely better than more than one casting of another 1st level spell (shield) can possibly only be a 3rd level spell and not be considered overpowered.

My recommended version would be something along these lines:

OBSIDIAN SPEARS
3rd-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a drop of ichor and a sliver of obsidian)
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute
Four spear-tipped obsidian spider-like appendages sprout out from your back. For the duration, you have a +2 bonus to AC.
You can use your action to make a melee spell attack with each obsidian spear with a reach of 10 feet. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage and 1d6 necrotic damage.
You can end the spell early by using your reaction to interpose the obsidian spears to protect you. Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you create one additional spear appendage for each slot level above 3rd.
 

My recommended version would be something along these lines:

OBSIDIAN SPEARS
3rd-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (a drop of ichor and a sliver of obsidian)
Duration: Concentration, up to one minute
Four spear-tipped obsidian spider-like appendages sprout out from your back. For the duration, you have a +2 bonus to AC.
You can use your action to make a melee spell attack with each obsidian spear with a reach of 10 feet. On a hit, the target takes 1d6 piercing damage and 1d6 necrotic damage.
You can end the spell early by using your reaction to interpose the obsidian spears to protect you. Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to AC, including against the triggering attack.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, you create one additional spear appendage for each slot level above 3rd.

I like this iteration of it, but I have a few questions.
1 - Why did you add a verbal component? Is it so it can't be cast silently?
2 - Why was the damage changed from 1d4 and 1d4 to 1d6 and 1d6? Was it because of the absence of the additional damage from the casting stat modifier?
 

I'm looking at the latest version listed above and comparing it with Haste.

Concentration - check
One target (self in this case) - check
+2 AC - check
Bonus attack - sort of. I think this spell is a little more powerful than Haste in that respect. It provides four attacks, each doing 2d6 damage. Compared to Haste which would probably be cast on someone with two attacks, that's more powerful, but this spell requires the caster to be the one in melee (albeit with reach and using their spellcasting stat).

Other: This includes a slightly weakened version of Shield (+5 to AC) instead of the other benefits from Haste

Overall, I would call it as a bit more powerful than Haste, which is already a top 3rd level spell. It may be better as a 4th level spell, rather than 3rd. Alternatively, having a material cost for each cast (such as the 50gp obsidian gem suggested above) would also help balance it out.

As for the question of why adding a verbal component, I would turn that around and ask why it shouldn't? Spells with no verbal component are relatively rare and have the advantage of being able to cast when silenced. What's so special about this spell that it should have that capability?
 

I'm looking at the latest version listed above and comparing it with Haste.
I hadn't thought to do that, and you bring up some solid points in doing so. I could see the proposed spell being 4th level - or having another drawback added to it like an expensive and/or consumed component.
1 - Why did you add a verbal component? Is it so it can't be cast silently?
A silence spell being able to interfere with a particular spell does a surprising amount to make the spell in question not seem overly powerful. And as crashtestdummy points out, spells that don't have verbal components are meant to be rarified to a certain degree.
2 - Why was the damage changed from 1d4 and 1d4 to 1d6 and 1d6? Was it because of the absence of the additional damage from the casting stat modifier?
Yes, it was partly because of the removal of ability score in the damage calculation. There was also a small part of me thinking that 8d4 damage per action rather than 8d6 felt low enough that a player might not feel it was worth actually using instead of other available attacks. I could be wrong about that, so maybe d4s would be a better choice.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top