Readied actions, invisibility, and attacks: which comes first?

[Pielorinho]

DC 20 Spot/listen checks to identify target - if target is incurring an AoO, you get to take it.

Maybe I coulda done that, but playing the imps smart, their tactics should then change: they should attack, turn invisible, and wait until the party goes out of combat mode. Once they're out of combat mode, they're flatfooted, and the imps can attack without fear of AoO, achieving the same goal through a much less fun tactic. I'd rather just say that without the perception check, the PCs don't get their dex bonus against the invisible creatures and therefore can't make an AoO.

As for taking -20 on your Move Silently when attacking, that's not quite right: you only take that -20 when running or charging.

Although, it sounds like the party was maybe underequipped to deal with two imps? The idea of the readied actions to attack is good (partial charge? that was 3.0, not 3.5, right?) and it gets triggered when the imp turns visible. I suspect that change in tactics occurred about half way through the fight?

Partial charges are still sort of allowed, although they're not called that:


If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn.

That's not entirely clear, but I interpret it as allowing a charge on a readied action. Their tactics were all right; what eventually won the fight for them was figuring out where the imps had gone to heal up (a hidey-hole), and starting to block off the entrance to the hidey hole. The imps had to reveal themselves or be trapped; once they revealed themselves, the PCs swarmed them and killed them within the round.

Personally, I wouldn't've given the imps cover - I'd've been trying to aid the party slightly and just simply ignored the logic of the cover. But it sounds like you've got that figured out

small, invis, dex draining, quick little opponents vs 3rd level party.

Yep. I'd estimate about 50-70% resource drain on the party for that encounter, given your description of the 32 point buy, etc. composition of said party.

However, I'll bet they learned more than a few lessons about fighting invisible foes, no?

I'm actually pretty happy with how the battle went: they went in kind of cocky and ended up in a tense fight, with constantly changing conditions, and with a newfound respect for poisons and invisibility. And, hopefully, cover: other than the mistake with granting imps cover from the folks whose squares they occupied*, they used cover in completely legitimate ways throughout the fight, gaining great advantages from doing so. I would love to see the PCs start using more cover, inasmuch as it makes fights a lot more exciting if folks are moving all over the battlemap during the fight.

Daniel

* This rules-mistake only affected one attack, in the first round of the fight. We use action dice a la Spycraft, and I had a handful of them left over at the end of the session; I'm retroactively assuming I used up an action die on this hit .

 

[Pielorinho]

The reason you can't make AoO's against the imps is because of total concealment

D'oh--of course! I was sure there was a reason for it, but couldn't remember why. Thanks!
Daniel

 

[Greybar]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something, but imps have invisibility as a spell-like ability. That means that they're going to be vulnerable to having the ability disrupted and provoke AoOs when trying to become invisible.

It also means at best they're using one turn invisible, one turn vulnerable and visible while they wait for their turn again, then invisible again (if they don't get creamed trying to use their SLA).

Perhaps you accidentally made it too easy for them to turn invisible?

john

 

[Patlin]

I was under the impression that they flew out of reach before turning invisible, although that would leave them open to attacks of opportunity as they flew off. Perhaps they used tumble?

Edit: No, no ranks and they were right out of the book. No ranks in concentration, either. Ought to make life hard for the imps unless they take out most opponents on the first attack.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I'm guessing it was a good thing you didn't give the imps levels of rogue.

 

[Pielorinho]

Nope, Greybar: the rounds looked something like this:
Surprise: stab the spellcasters!
Round 1) Fly up to the top of a bookshelf, suggest to the fighters, "Fight stupid!" (One fighter, on failing his save, was persuaded to try to grapple the imps every single round, which led to him getting several AoOs on him; the other, who made his save, didn't have to try to physically restrain the first fighter ). PCs then attack. One PC, with a wisdom score of 2 due to a previous bad encounter with an Allip, decided to throw the party's lantern at the imps; a critical fumble on the thrown lantern led to its extinguishment. Oh, no!
Round 2) The imps, enjoying their darkvision, turn invisible and move into position; the one PC with darkvision gets to make an AoO as they use their spell-like ability. The Wisdom 2 dude pulls out his handy backup lantern and lights it. Now everyone can see that the imps are gone, and that everyone is glaring at Mr. Lantern-boy, who sheepishly sets the lantern on the floor. People delay until the imps reappear.
Round 3) The imps reappear, both poisoning one of the fighters and then flying under the table and hiding behind some chairs. The guy they stung gets to make an AoO, but he was their chosen victim for a reason: he wasn't within reach of any other PCs. The guy they stung throws the table to the side and makes a (fairly easy) spot check to see an imp's tail poking out behind a chair. A spellcaster casts an AU Gust of Wind spell, inflicting 2d6 damage on the imp that fails the save. The poor suggestable fighter runs over and snatches at the imp, receiving a sting for his troubles. Mr. Lanternboy hacks into one of the chairs, send up a cloud of stuffing but not destroying it.
Round 4) The imps, using the cover of the chairs to their advantage, go invisible: you don't get AoOs on someone benefiting from cover. Mr. Lanternboy gets a critical success on his spot check, though: one of the imps gets a bit of chair fluff caught on his leg as he flies, giving Mr. Lanternboy the clue he needs to make a successful AoO. They fly atop the bookshelves and start licking their wounds. Mr. Lanternboy starts whaling away at the bookshelf, hoping the imps are up there. He chooses the wrong square to attack.
Round 5) The imps, realizing that Lanternboy is going to chop the bookshelf into flinders pretty soon, crawl into their hideyhole up on top of the bookshelf. Mr. Lanternboy, anticipating this, climbs the bookshelf, sees the hideyhole, and starts filling it in. Everyone else is readying actions.
Round 6) The imps, not want to be trapped in their hideyhole, both sting at Mr. Lanternboy. The Poor Fighter half-climbs up the bookshelf, tries to grab an imp out of the hideyhole, and gets stung for his efforts. The other fighter-type impales one of the imps on the end of his lance with a beautiful blow. Mr. Lanternboy, nursing his stung hand, picks up a piece of debris and smashes in the skull of the remaining imp.

I'm pretty sure that's how it went down.
Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

If you don't want to read that blow-by-blow above, the important thing is that in the first round, a PC's foolish (in-character) action led to the room's momentary darkness, giving the darkvision-equipped imps a chance to go invisible again without suffering many AoOs. I definitely took the AoO-provoking nature of their invisibility into account.

Daniel

 

[Greybar]

Sounds like the imps did the right things while the PCs were hurting from the earlier encounter. Good notes about the cover vs. AoO bit, where being small was nice. Definitely one of those cases where the details of the scene increased the EL by 1 or 2. Ah, all the reasons why all this CR/EL stuff is more art than science.

Sounds like a lot of fun, though. I'm sure your players will be talking about that for a while (and be cautious with imps and other such in the future)

john

 

[Hypersmurf]

Partial charges are still sort of allowed, although they're not called that:

Yes, but only if you're restricted to taking a standard or move action on your turn.

Unless it's the surprise round, you're a zombie, you're slowed, etc, you're not restricted, and thus can't charge as a standard action, and thus can't Ready a charge.

Choosing to forego your move action and Ready a standard action is not being 'restricted', since you could have chosen to take a move action if you wanted. And when the Readied action triggers, it's 'after your turn is over but before your next one has begun' (per the description of the Ready action)... so you're still not restricted to a standard or move action on your turn.

As written, zombies can Ready a restricted charge, but barring special circumstances, normal people can't.

The reason you can't make AoO's against the imps is because of total concealment.

Right. That's a new rule in 3.5; in 3E, there was nothing preventing you making an AoO on an invisible creature... though you'd have to choose a square and suffer a miss chance, like any other attack on an invisible creature.

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Yes, but only if you're restricted to taking a standard or move action on your turn.

Unless it's the surprise round, you're a zombie, you're slowed, etc, you're not restricted, and thus can't charge as a standard action, and thus can't Ready a charge.

Eh. You're likely correct, but I think I'll continue to interpret "restricted" generously, saying that the choice to ready an action has restricted you to taking a move or a standard action only, in the same way that choosing to cast slow on yourself would.

Why? Because that makes more sense to me .

Daniel