Reading Group--Caesar's Legion

It's been fun reading along in this thread, even though I passed on the book. But it occurred to me some of you might like this book as well: The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece (1989) by Victor Davis Hansen

Anyone read it?

I posted a very brief review of it on my website. You can check it out under Ancient Warfare. I don't update my site anymore -- long story starting with several months of technical problems, then having a job that prevented me from reading and writing reviews, and currently I just am not reading much history... though having just finished Bravo Two Zero maybe a long-overdue update is coming.

Here's my website:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/thehussar/

And here is a direct link to the review of Hansen's book:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/thehussar/ancient.html#hanson
 

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Yuan-ti, thanks for link. I've been perusing your Literate Hussar site and adding even more books to my must-read list. I loved Gates of Fire, I enjoyed Warfare in the Classical World, and I've been meaning to read Thucydides. Now I guess I should add Vegetius and Xenophon. If Hansen's The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece supplied most of the factoids for Gates of Fire, well, I have to read that too!

By the way, for everyone reading Caesar's Legion, I just got my copy of Caesar's Legions (note the "s") by Sekunda. It's full of color plates, black-and-white photography, and line art. It looks great. (Thanks, SHARK, for the wonderful recommendation!)
 

Chapter V -- Invading Britain (continued)

The Britons had hidden in the woods all night, knowing the legionaries would return in the morning for the last of the wheat.

Clearly the Britons were Ftr1/Rog1... ;)

The chariots sped up. Running back and forth along the Roman line, the vehicles were hard-to-hit weapon platforms, with the nobles standing beside the drivers and hurling javelins on each pass. The noise of pounding hooves and drumming wheels would have been deafening, with the legionaries losing count of how many chariots there were -- hundreds, maybe thousands.

That paints quite a picture! Now imagine chariots pulled by rhinos, giant lizards, etc.

Sometimes the drivers would run out onto the chariot pole as far as the yoke as the chariots careered along at full speed, then ran back to their driving positions, as quick as lightning, just to awe the men...

Sounds like quite a bonus to one's Intimidation check...

When traveling to and from Gaul, while carried in a litter he always had one of his secretaries riding with him, taking down dictation.

Julius Caesar really is the busy executive on the go, dictating his latest management book to his secretary while traveling to and from the battle lines. Wow.

And because intrigue is the currency of politics, Caesar had invented a secret cipher, known only to his most intimate friends, involving the transposition of letters on the written page.

Who doesn't love secret codes and ciphers? Shouldn't wizards do everything in code?

One of the nonmilitary projects Caesar was working on in Britain was a scientific study of the length of the days on the island.

Is there anything this guy doesn't do?
 
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Chapter V -- Invading Britain (continued)

While Caesar spent the winter on business in northern Italy and the Balkans...

That seems entirely too modern, doesn't it? He's able to spend the winter in temperate northern Italy.

The previous year the Britons had seen little more than 80 Roman vessels of their shores. Now they were staggered to see 800....The Spanish Armada of 1588 would comprise only a paltry 130 vessels, carrying little more than 19,000 troops.

The Romans show up on British shores with 50,000 troops. Wow.

Locking their shields over their heads in the testudo, or "tortoise" formation, the 7th went forward against British stones and javelins, and under cover of the testudos heaped earth against the walls of the stockade to form ramps, an activity that took several hours. They then surged up the ramps in formation and dropped into the stockade.

Insane. Their shields provided enough cover, at least locked together in formation, that they were able to work for hours piling dirt into ramps just outside the stockade walls without casualties. If this was fiction, I'd dismiss it as completely unbelievable.
 
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Greetings!

Chapter V: Invading Britain

Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 42.

"When Caesar arrived back in Brittany in the spring of 54 B.C., he found he now had twenty-eight warships and more than six hundred new transports at his disposal, built from local timber, their sails and tackle brought up from Spain."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

It always amazes me that in contrast to the often bewildering, unpredictable, and unreliable travel networks during the Dark and Middle Ages, here in the Roman Republic, the merest of things like ship-sails and tackle, let alone something very valuable, can be so easily and assuredly transported over hundreds of miles--from Spain to northern France--to Caesar, waiting for it eagerly for his fleet. This example, like the fleets shipping grain in mass quantities and on regular schedules from Egypt to Rome, as well as regular mail and newspapers, just continues to impress me on how far more organized and capable were our ancestors than is so often believed. In the game, the Dark and Middle Ages are always held up as somehow the defining paradigm of all that is achievable, when again and again, the achievements of the ancients, like the Romans, is often of far greater level in scope, skill, and glory.:)




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 43

"Since daybreak they'd been watching the horizon fill with hundreds of sails, and been dazzled by the thousands of flashing oars. The previous year the Britons had seen little more than 80 Roman vessels off their shores. Now they were staggered to see 800. As the hours passed, the Dover Strait darkened with brown hulls. Never again would an invasion fleet as large as this come to Britain's shores. The Spanish Armada of 1588 would comprise only a paltry 130 vessels, carrying little more than 19,000 troops."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

800 ships! Hello! Let's see--that's the 10th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 12th Legions--some 50,000 and more soldiers!--with more in France if Caesar needs them! That also includes perhaps over 2000 cavalry! Damn! Imagine all the engineers, support troops, archers, and so on--that supported the powerful legions. This enormous invasion force--which actually represented only a fraction of what was available to all of Rome--after all, Caesar did not have all of the Roman Legions under his command--Pompey, and other generals had many more legions under their own commands. Still, this powerful invasion force hits the coast of Britain like a storm!

The Spanish Armada looks weak by comparison! 130 vessels, and 19,000 soldiers? Compared to Caesar's mighty legions, that is more like a scouting expedition! This is just staggering! In game terms, people often claim that 5000 men is a huge army! Please! It becomes more and more apparent with study how powerful and skilled our ancient ancestors were--and it also puts into perspective, contrary to the opinion of some historians--that there was indeed a "Dark Ages." European civilization, glory, and power clearly and decisively declined for 1000 years and more after the fall of the Roman Empire. Interesting, 54 B.C.-1588 A.D. is *FIFTEEN-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-FOUR YEARS* and Europe still couldn't achieve what Caesar had commanded. Something else, I'll tell ya!:) Imagine the unknown terror among the Britons! Imagine them trembling in fear as the sea itself disappears under the hulls and sails of 800 warships! It must have simply been unimaginable to them!:)




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 44

"Throughout his career, Julius Caesar made a habit of marching in the early hours of the morning to catch his adversaries off guard, and a little after midnight, leaving his least experienced legion, the 12th, together with three hundred cavalry, to guard the new camp under the command of General Quintus Atrius, Caesar marched into the night with his four Spanish legions and seventeen hundred cavalry."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Really, look at this. Just after midnight, Caesar marches off into the night with four legions and 1700 cavalry! Caesar does this kind of bold command and assault on a routine basis. He just doesn't quit! Keep in mind, Caesar is pushing fifty years old here, and he is always in front, always in command! In the game, it seems that many are perplexed by any characters or generals, doing anything so bold as this. I can hear the shouts now--"That's not possible. That's not realistic. That many troops would get lost. They can't march like that in the dark. They can't possibly stay organized. Surely they would get lost!" and so on!:)

Here, Caesar shows us all how it's done!:) What courage and daring on his part, heh?:)




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 45

"Toiling around the clock, with oil lamps burning through the night at the repair sites and work teams rostered in shifts, the damaged vessels were all repaired within ten days. The ships were then hauled up onto the beach, all 760 of them, and enclosed on three sides by fortifications extending down to the water's edge from the camp."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Here is another massive achievement! In ten days? Hello? Then also notice that Caesar's legions built a fortress that enclosed the entire port! Fortified naval bases in ten days! Damn, these Romans are incredible! This is very inspiring stuff! Imagine, if the Romans could do these great feats with only strength, sweat, discipline, and iron will, --what could a similar group accomplish in the game with magic?:) I love fortified ports! That is so cool.




Quote:
____________________________________________________
Pg. 48

"The stronghold was full of warriors and cattle, and Caesar wasted no time sending the legions against it. They attacked from two sides, the ferocity of their assault sending the defenders fleeing over a third wall in terror."
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Imagine the Roman legionaries streaming into the fort, swords hacking, spears stabbing, with growling and clenched teeth as the men struggle to the death! Imagine the blood spattering on the shining armour, and the shouted curses as the Roman soldiers leap to the slaughter, cutting down the barbarians as they seek to flee! The smell of burning wood, blood, and the terrified cattle running about as bodies lay everywhere, and smoke begins to rise from the burning fortress! Then, the exultant cries of the victorious Roman soldiers as they cheer their centurions! What a sight indeed!

MMADSEN, this is just fantastic! The visuals and ideas are so vivid and striking!:) The inspiration for the game is very cool! I like the idea of using standards and different kinds of magic as you mentioned. Imagine that, as well as their tattoo-magic of the barbarian warriors! There are so many cool ideas swimming through my mind! Roman weapons, armour, war machines, Roman priests, War magic, Celtic Druids, tattoo magic, magical paints, magical standards, enchanted music and horns, the list just goes on and on!:)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

These romans are a good example of : "reality is stranger than fiction".

I think it quite brutal that the other legions stood around watching. That is quite an insult to those britons. ( ok, well come and kill you , but as you can see well send in only one third of our troops)

Again scale going across, with 800 ships and 50000 troops, ramsacking the country for a summer, then return to the mainland destroying the massive fortress ( it housed 800 breached ships!!!).

Join the legions and learn a few trades( fighting, building, digging), train your str, dex and con. Get loot and land! Meet interesting foreign cultures and destroy them.

Scale, and brutal efficiency.

unfortunately the book goes into the legion A fought tribe B at place C. intresting but not as crunchy as the beginning of the book.

Also: Ceasar is an :):):). He is good at his job(s), he is a acompliced tactician, general, politician, writer, scientist, etc, etc But He is totaly selfish, everything he does is to further his plan of world domination.
 
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MMadsen, glad you like the website. Looking at it again and talking about it here made me want to put up some new reviews, actually.

Regarding magical standards: having played Warhammer (Battles but also the RPG) in my increasingly distant teen years, I have always looked for ways to bring magic standards into a D&D game. When armies march it makes good sense, but since PCs are only occasionally directly involved in major battles you have to look for other inspiration. I have had two:

1) War is brewing and the invading Tarrathian Minotaurs :D are rumored to have sent a party to search for the ancient Great Bull, a battle standard carried by an ancient emperor and dedicated to the god of the minotaurs. History says that armies carrying this standard have never been defeated. The PCs must find the standard before the minotaur heroes or recover it before they can bring it to their army.

2) The PCs are sent in to face the power of a local Fire Giant duke. The initial assault goes well and they withdraw to rest and recover. Returning they find the duke, his high priest and bodyguards gathered around a great standard depicting a red dragon. Imagine the PCs surprise when the standard shoots a fireball at them...

The powers you can come up with for standards can range from subtle (fear, aid) to in-your-face (fireballs, globe of invulnerability).

Edit: Plus, the Roman Standard Bearer just SCREAMS for a prestige class...

FUN FUN FUN!
 
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Did he really need that many troops against the backward britons ? 50,000 ? Any real resistance was expected ? This surely seems like an inflated number no ?
 

Greetings!

Hello Rashak Mani:) No, the numbers are not "inflated." Rome routinely fielded armies of such size. The Roman Republic, and later the Roman Empire, had the population and the organization to raise large armies of tens and hundreds of thousands of troops. When an army died, it was soon replaced. Caesar in his invasion of Britain only had under his command a rather small part of the armies available at the time to the Roman Republic.

The sources are all compared and checked by many different historical methods, including the Criterion of Multiple Attestation, for example. The author--Stephen Dando-Collins, has done an excellent job in research for the book. It's great stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

It always amazes me that in contrast to the often bewildering, unpredictable, and unreliable travel networks during the Dark and Middle Ages, here in the Roman Republic, the merest of things like ship-sails and tackle, let alone something very valuable, can be so easily and assuredly transported over hundreds of miles--from Spain to northern France--to Caesar, waiting for it eagerly for his fleet.

It's sad to realize that Roman roads were the best roads in medieval Europe, years and years after the empire fell.

This example, like the fleets shipping grain in mass quantities and on regular schedules from Egypt to Rome, as well as regular mail and newspapers, just continues to impress me on how far more organized and capable were our ancestors than is so often believed.

The newspaper, delivered by Pony Express, is what kills me. Amazing.
 

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