Reading Group--Caesar's Legion

[Alaric_Prympax]

Did young men gain citizenship by joining the legions, or did they need to have citizenship already to qualify for the legions?

IIRC in order to join a legion you had to be a citizen and at the end of your 20 years (16 if in the Praetorian Guard) you received a land grant somewhere in the empire. Furthermore the Primus Pilus (First Pilum: the highest ranking centurion or the segeant major of the legion) was granted status in the Equestrian class which allowed their children to get involved in higher political office. Certain offices could only be held by Equestrians, the most prominate being the "Legatus of AEgyptus" which in Augustus' time was considered to be his personal property and thus the governor of Egypt did not have to be a member of the Senatorial Class (a former Consul- a Proconsul or Praetor- a Propraetor) but this is getting off topic. I'm a little behind in my reading- sorry group. I got a lot of d20 books over the past 3 weeks and I'm trying to read too may things at once while working on my own campaign and real life, but you'll know how that can get in the way of a good game.


If a noncitizen join the auxilairies- at the end of their service of 25 years they received citizenship and a land grant (not sure about the land though).

It's been 10 years since I studied any of these details, I'm sorry if I got any of them wrong.

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)

Meanwhile, Veringetorix's agents had brought the Aeduan tribe over to the Gallic cause with a combination of rhetoric, threats, and gold.

Diplomacy check with bonuses for credible threats and lots of gold.

...a force of ten thousand Aeduans was assembled, armed, and marched down to the Auvergne Mountains. Officially, they were coming to reinforce Caesar's legions, but in reality they intended to attack the Romans from the rear.

I can't imagine getting attacked by my own reinforcements. Awful. Just think how your players would feel if their allies arrived and started attacking them (with Flanking bonus)...

Caesar's famous luck held, because word of the double-cross plan reached him via loyal Aeduans.

Getting double-crossed probably isn't so bad if you have spies (or Divinations) that reveal the plan before you're stabbed in the back.

Caesar then took the 10th and three other legions and marched twenty-four miles in a day and confronted the Aeduans on the road to Gergovia. At the sight of the legions appearing unexpectedly in front of them, the young Gallic soldiers promptly threw down their arms and surrendered. Caesar not only spared them all, he added them to his force.

First, I'm so glad I don't have to forced-march 24 miles in a day. That would be grueling -- especially when you realize they did it in heavy gear on one piece of bread for lunch.

Second, how very Sun Tzu: "Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected." And: "Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

Of course, Sun Tzu also says: "If you march fifty li [miles] in order to outmaneuver the enemy, you will lose the leader of your first division, and only half your force will reach the goal. If you march thirty li with the same object, two-thirds of your army will arrive."

Third -- and I could swear Sun Tzu had something to say on this, but I can't find it -- I'm always surprised by how easily a general can take in enemy forces and make them his own. I wouldn't've expected that.

Giving his troops just three hours' rest, Caesar then turned around and headed back to Gergovia....Pounding on through the night, Caesar brought his four legions back to Gergovia a little before dawn, after marching forty-eight miles in a day and a night.

I can't imagine being in any condition to fight. No sleep, and 48 miles of marching. Ouch.

 

[Rashak Mani]

Napoleon was another general who used quick marches in order to get the better of his foes... works wonders

 

[Ysgarran]

Caeser comes visiting.

I'm not reading the current selection, I've been reading the "Roman People" byt Robert Kebric and came across something that seemed appropriate to the current thread.

Three months before his assassination Caeser visited Cicero (one the major families in Rome). Cicero was a republican so he was NOT one of Caeser's greatest admirers. What I found interesting is that Caeser came 'visiting' with two thousand of men. Just imagine that, Caeser comes to the villa with two thousand of his veterans of the wars in Gaul and his battle with Pompey.

Cicero was caught off guard by Caesers affable nature but I suppose Caeser could afford to be at ease with the number of men he had with him.

Cicero says:
"There you are - a visit (by Caeser), or should I call it a billeting, which as I said was troublesome to me but not disagreeable..."

later,
Ysgarran.

 

[sword-dancer]

Re: Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)

The defenders weren't idle either. There were a number of copper miners in the town, and they dug tunnels out under the town walls to undermine the siege works.

You dig tunnels under your own walls to attack the people attacking your walls? That works?

?

Yes it works
Counterminig was a often used action, when the enemie had digged under your wallsthey would burn the pillars of wood and then the wall should crumble.
And this would be "easier" the try to ram or shoot down the gaulic walls.
Because they were not only filled with earth but reinforced inside with wood.
.

I guess that says a lot for Roman armor and Roman medical care. Nine out of ten injured, but not mortally wounded.

Especially for the scutum and the closed combat a legionair had only 90 cm place about 30 cm free room between his comrade and himself

That really isn't too terribly different from a nucleus of legionaries surrounded by auxiliaries with little armor, light shields, and slings and javelins.

That isn`t tue klight or unarmorde auxiliaries were skirmishers like balearic singers.
I remember a picture if an archer with scale armor.
The heavy inf auxiliaries were armed with a (brince mainly IIRc), great oval or round flat? shield, spear/lance the hasta, scale or mail armour and a short sword or maybe the spatha.

In the Middle Ages, remember, there is often just a small nucleus of armoured knights, supported by a mob of peasants armed with a spear, and wearing no armor, or leather at best.

Not necessary not even usual
A Lance, the force a knight was have to stand considered of him, his squire maybe a page, the couitillon a heavey man at arms fighting at horse, a few "Archers", were archer could only meant not men-at-arms, so lighter armed and maybe fought on horse maybe on foot.
The problem with heavy inf was often IMHO
The Knights, wanting the glory for themselves,
not trained to meuver at a large force.

remember the anglosaxon stood at hastings against Williams the bastards, norman knights and archers long.
only when they broke their ranks to attack the normannic knights get them down.
I didn`t know if the anglosaxons wouldn`t like to shoot down by a hail of arrows, get uin rage over Harolds dead or were tricked from William(feigned retreat maybe) or any combination of above

Or Courtrai wwere the flamish Citizen militias won againstfrench knights.

Did young men gain citizenship by joining the legions, or did they need to have citizenship already to qualify for the legions?

Only a roman citizen culd be taken into an roman legion, IIRC i remember heard something about auxilliar legiones bur i wouldn`t coun t on it.

OTOH if necessary the romans would give the recruits citizenship when he was accepted as legionair(finished boot camp successfully maybe)

I hope this helps
-If it interrupts the thread tell me and i will delete it.

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Caeser comes visiting.

Three months before his assassination Caeser visited Cicero (one the major families in Rome). Cicero was a republican so he was NOT one of Caeser's greatest admirers. What I found interesting is that Caeser came 'visiting' with two thousand of men. Just imagine that, Caeser comes to the villa with two thousand of his veterans of the wars in Gaul and his battle with Pompey.

There goes the entire fridge full of beer. Seriously though, how intimidating would that be? Caesar shows up with 2000 troops -- just to say "hi"?

 

[mmadsen]

IIRC in order to join a legion you had to be a citizen and at the end of your 20 years (16 if in the Praetorian Guard) you received a land grant somewhere in the empire....If a noncitizen join the auxilairies- at the end of their service of 25 years they received citizenship and a land grant (not sure about the land though).

OK, that sounds reasonable. By the way, the contractual term of service in the legions was 16 years in Caesar's time. I believe Augustus increased it to 20 years.

One of the important issues for men retiring from the legions was where their land grant would be. They didn't want recently captured lands they'd have to protect.

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)

Caesar then initiated a complicated operation that he later claimed had only limited objectives. He put helmets on his noncombatant mule drivers, then put the mule drivers on his thousands of pack animals and sent them, looking like cavalry, marching off with the 13th Legion as a feint attack on one flank. The plan worked beautifully.

Doesn't that seem like a bad TV sitcom scheme? Put helmets on mule drivers, and mule drivers on mules, and watch the zany hijinks ensue! And yet it worked.

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)

Caesar's ten legions dug entrenchments around Alesia with a circumference of ten miles and dotted with twenty-three forts. As it became obvious that Vercingetorix was preparing to hold out for some time, Caesar built a second outer line of trenches, walls, and towers, extending for fourteen miles, to defend against attack from any relieving force from the outside.

I can't say much new here. The scale of Caesar's military engineering continually amazes me. Ten miles of entrenchments surrounded by another fourteen miles of entrenchments?

(That'll get those goblins! )

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Mmadsen wrote:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Chapter VI -- Revolt and Revenge (continued)
Caesar's ten legions dug entrenchments around Alesia with a circumference of ten miles and dotted with twenty-three forts. As it became obvious that Vercingetorix was preparing to hold out for some time, Caesar built a second outer line of trenches, walls, and towers, extending for fourteen miles, to defend against attack from any relieving force from the outside.

I can't say much new here. The scale of Caesar's military engineering continually amazes me. Ten miles of entrenchments surrounded by another fourteen miles of entrenchments?

(That'll get those goblins!)"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Hey there my friend! Indeed, when reading this, it is this kind of awe-inspiring might and determination that convinces me that a hill full of hundreds, or even thousands of Goblins, hell, even TENS OF THOUSANDS of Goblins wouldn't stand a chance in an area dominated by a human empire. A small, impoverished, Dark Ages petty feifdom?--sure. But with a strong, powerful human empire? In the time of Rome, as can be seen with hundreds of thousands--even MILLIONS of Celts, all ferocious, and highly intelligent humans--the Goblins, like the Celts, would have been either exterminated utterly, or ruthlessly conquered and broken to the yoke of slavery to the empire.

In the time of Rome, there was no other fate to be had, and Caesar and the endless march of the legions proved that fact.

Poor little Goblins...

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK