Reading Group--Caesar's Legion

[Rashak Mani]

I was speculating on why your "memory" chooses certain images and not others. Yes first impressions tend to stick firmer. The validity of any Hollywood movie is very very suspect.

Also did you know Ben Hurs central theme is the Gay love of his with that roman ?! I was amazed when I saw a program about "covert" portrayal of gay themes in hollywood movies. Watch the scene where they meet again after a long time. It seems very clearly old lovers meeting again and rejoicing about "good old times".

Also I was prodding the guys who seemed all fired up with war stories and forget the dirty parts... All this story of glory without gory. The great gaulish chieftain Vercingetorix said something like this: "The romans make a desert and then they call it Pax Romana."

 

[mmadsen]

When I imagine these stories of battle, old hollywood movies provide the images. Ben Hur, Spartacus etc. These pictures about the roman empire are the footage I compose the images from. The newer movies dont have that effect (like gladiator). First impressions are strong impresions.

So do your "mental movie" Romans all wear leather armor? And never steel mail?

 

[sword-dancer]

.

Mingle another time in this thread, maybe i could explain this scene a bit?

Doesn't sound very coordinated. Spontaniously charging? Its like they are caught up in the rush of victory (after slaugtering the cavalry).

It could be that the leaders of this troops (Centurions or Legates
most likely), saw the needs of the situation and acted accordingly, without waitng for orders, that could come to late if they came.
Initiative is a valuable attrribute for an soldier.

In a battle with the nevier,
"the enemy cam so fast upon, that Cäsar had must done 3 things at once.
Rise the battle flag for the battle alarm, trompeter give order to sound their trumpets, to call the the men whoi fortified or such things, rally the troops in battle order and order to attack.
But in this Situation 2 things were helpful, The training and experience of troops, who knows from earlier battles what has to be done without commands, and that the Legats had from caesär the order to stay by their legions. When they saw the enemy so near and so fast, they didn`t wait for Caesars commands, but took initiative on their own.....so few time the legionaries had, they couldn`t put on their helms...everyone took position where he comes from fortifyingand saw the first Standart, so that noboy lost time to search for his own unit.""
Sorurce
Die Legionen des Augustus
Der römische Soldat im archäologischen Experiment
Prof. Marcus Junkelmann

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)

The men of the 1st, fighting now on three sides and outnumbered, were in danger of being surrounded and cut to pieces. No orders came from Pompey -- he'd disappeared. None came from their divisional commander, the useless General Domitius....Their pride and their discipline intact, the 1st Legion began to pull back in perfect order, step by step, harried all the way by the 10th Legion and the reserve cohorts.

All of Pompey's veteran legions pull back in an orderly fashion, but the young soldiers of the three new legions in the center begin to waver.

Now Caesar issued another order. Again his red banner dropped. Again trumpets sounded "Charge." Now the men of his third line, who had been standing, waiting impatiently to join the fray, rushed forward with a cheer. As the fresh troops of the third line arrived on the scene, the men of the first and second lines gave way and let them through. The impact of this second charge shattered what cohesion remained in Pompey's center. Raw recruits threw down their shields, turned, and fled toward the camp on the hill they'd left that morning. Auxiliaries did the same, and the entire center dissolved.

Red banners, trumpets, and a charge that shatters the enemy line (and enemy morale). Great imagery!

 

[Maldur]

The ordered retreat of the 1st, and several earlier examples (like the surrendered and slaugtered youngsters in the harbour, while the veteran squads fought themselves to freedom) show the value of veteran legions over new recruited ones. No wonder Ceasar is doing everything he can to keep them in the field ( iso discharging them).

It also seems that Ceasar is a vastly superiour general. He has time to adapt his plans on the field and he can react to changes/oppertunities. Whereas Pompey seems to have made up his mind ( that he lost) before the battle even started.

 

[mmadsen]

The ordered retreat of the 1st, and several earlier examples (like the surrendered and slaugtered youngsters in the harbour, while the veteran squads fought themselves to freedom) show the value of veteran legions over new recruited ones.

High-level Fighters really are that much better than low-level Fighters -- not necessarily because they have ten times as many Hit Points though.

 

[Maldur]

wow fast reply

I seems like better will-saves are very important and the trust in and trust of the officers.

 

[mmadsen]

I seems like better will-saves are very important and the trust in and trust of the officers.

I think we can make the case that a more "realistic" Fighter might trade away big Hit Dice for better Will and Ref Saves and a few more Skill Points, and his Bonus Feat List should include Courage (+4 to all Fear Saves). A true veteran might also have Back to the Wall (+2 to-hit and AC when below 1/4 hp).

(Back to the Wall and Courage are from Ravenloft.)

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)

Behind them, many of the men flooding through the gates began looting their own camp. It seems that the camp's commander, General Afranius, had already escaped by this time, spiriting away Pompey's son Gnaius, probably as prearranged with Pompey....With fighting going on inside the camp, young General Marcus Favonius found Pompey in his headquarters tent....Now, horrified by the state in which he found his hero, the young general tried to rouse his commander from his stupor. "General, the enemy are in the camp! You must fly!"

Pompey looked at him oddly. All authorities agree on Pompey's words at the news: "What! Into the very camp?"

Again, very sad.

 

[mmadsen]

Chapter XI -- The Battle of Pharsalus (continued)

Here's where it might turn into a D&D adventure:

Favonius and Pompey's chief secretary, Philip, a Greek freedman, helped their commander to his feet, removed their general's identifying scarlet cloak, replacing it with a plain one, then ushered him to the door. Five horses were waiting outside the tent....

The five riders galloped north toward the twon of Larisa, whose people were sypathetic toward Pompey. On the road, they encountered a group of thirty cavalryment. As Pompey's generals drew their swords to defend their leader they recognized the cavalry as one of Labienus's squadrons, intact, unscathed, and lost. With the troopers gladly joining their commander to provide a meager bodyguard, the thirty-five riders hurried on.

Sometimes your reinforcements are enemies in disguise. Sometimes the enemy cavalry patrol is your own lost unit. War is strange sometimes.