D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

[Alzrius]

* Werevermins were canon in 3r Ed, in WotC web articles.

Specifically, they were the product of the entomanothrope template.

 

[Voadam]

I always liked the ermordenung narratively. I thought they were a great Ravenloft addition.

In practice they are a save or die every attack monster which I find generally unfun to use in actual combats.

 

[humble minion]

I always liked the ermordenung narratively. I thought they were a great Ravenloft addition.

View attachment 135234

In practice they are a save or die every attack monster which I find generally unfun to use in actual combats.

Yeah, poison of any sort is such a hard thing to mechanically implement in an interesting way. I'm mostly only familiar with their 3e incarnation, which wasn't QUITE save-or-die, though it certainly could be depending on what base character you applied the template to. Ermordenung monk!

Most interesting poison plots require something horrible but slow-acting, so that there can be a time limit on some quest the PCs have to do to save the day. But in practice that just provides time to prepare a Protection from Poison spell.

I've never run a game with an ermordenung, but I suppose the only real way to go about it would be to have it a detective story, with any combat coming predominately from different sources before a short, sharp, lethal confrontation at the end. But even then, an intelligent ermordenung has all sorts of ways of killing PCs in their sleep etc with an eye on efficiency rather than drama.

One thing about them though - is it written anywhere that their loyalty to Ivana is part of their make-up? Could an ermordenung turn on its mistress? PCs trying to cure an ermordenung, or dealing with a loved one who has been turned into an ermordenung, or managing an ermordenung who wants to defect (to Ivan, or to somewhere outside Borca) could be interesting. Ermordenung are explicitly not immune to each others poison (otherwise the 'oh no i can never touch a loved one again!' tragedy aspect of them has a honking great loophole in it), could there be an internecine civil war among the ranks of the ermordenung? Everyone ELSE in Borca intrigues and backbites, why not these guys too?

 

[Voadam]

Yeah, poison of any sort is such a hard thing to mechanically implement in an interesting way. I'm mostly only familiar with their 3e incarnation, which wasn't QUITE save-or-die, though it certainly could be depending on what base character you applied the template to. Ermordenung monk!

In AD&D they were save or die on any touch, saving meant you only took 10 hp that round, 20 if they had you grabbed. You got a +4 on the save so it was easier, but you still took damage.

3e's 2d4 con damage twice is pretty nasty as well regardless of your level if you are not already protected. That is one of the nastiest in the game, con damage is the only one that can kill generally.

I've never run a game with an ermordenung, but I suppose the only real way to go about it would be to have it a detective story, with any combat coming predominately from different sources before a short, sharp, lethal confrontation at the end.

There are others besides detective stories.

They could be a plot element powerful bodyguard threat that is not planned to be used as direct combat. "I hear Boritsi is protected by the Ermordenung, an elite all women society of assassins."

They could be a known big threat in a Leverage style heist. "The Kargatane wants you to acquire the letters that Madame Velini holds. She is known to kill with a contact poison that has no known antidote. Direct confrontation is not advised. You have five days."

They fall into a similar category to a lot of undead in AD&D, nasty dangerous glass cannons. A big pack of ghouls is similar, save or be paralyzed for longer than the encounter.

 

[Voadam]

One thing about them though - is it written anywhere that their loyalty to Ivana is part of their make-up? Could an ermordenung turn on its mistress? PCs trying to cure an ermordenung, or dealing with a loved one who has been turned into an ermordenung, or managing an ermordenung who wants to defect (to Ivan, or to somewhere outside Borca) could be interesting. Ermordenung are explicitly not immune to each others poison (otherwise the 'oh no i can never touch a loved one again!' tragedy aspect of them has a honking great loophole in it), could there be an internecine civil war among the ranks of the ermordenung? Everyone ELSE in Borca intrigues and backbites, why not these guys too?

Only vaguely

From 2e

"The ermordenung are a dark and evil people found almost exclusively in the domain of Borca. Here, they act as elite agents who serve Ivana Boritsi, the ruler of that dread domain. On rare occasions, they are sent on missions outside of Borca to further the interests of their mistress.
* * *
Habitat/Society: The ermordenung live as members of the ruling elite in Borca. They seldom mix with "the common folk" unless acting on behalf of their mistress, Ivana Boritsi. The fact that the ermordenung cannot touch another living creature without causing it to whither and die causes them endless heartache. They have been forever denied the physical pleasures—the caress of a lover's hand, the embrace of a close friend, the affectionate hug of a child—that mean so much to mortal men. Their inner suffering and agony has been marshalled to make them cruel and heartless agents who carry out the orders of Ivana Boritsi without question.
Ecology: The ermordenung are normal humans who have been transformed, at the command of Ivana Boritsi, mistress of Borca, into nightmarish creatures. The process by which these creatures are created is dark and mysterious, but is believed to be so brutal to its subjects that only the most physically fit can survive it. Because of her own passionate nature, Ivana Boritsi selects only the most physically beautiful of her people for the "honor" of transformation."

In 3e:
"A seductive, twisted and evil people of the domain of Borca, the ermordenung are created by Ivana Boritsi, mistress of Borca, to become her most loyal and elite operatives and assassins. Living as members of the ruling class, they appear as normal human beings of beauty, nobility and grace. Both men and women are exceptionally tall and marked by coal-black hair, dark, hypnotic eyes and an unusually pale complexion.
* * *
Forever denied normal physical pleasures, inner suffering and agony leads most of them to become cruel and heartless, carrying out the orders of Ivana Boritsi without question. They are rarely sent on missions outside Borca."

So it does not say directly why they are loyal to her instead of bitter and hate her, but it could be the creation process, the status position, or something else.

The fact that she rarely sends them out hints at possibly not having great control outsider her domain so their could be a darklord power or a poison thing that borders block.

Also I was misremembering them as only women. From the initial 2e description it talks about both sexes as does the 3e one.

 

[Guest 85555]

In practice they are a save or die every attack monster which I find generally unfun to use in actual combats.

This can be great for horror though

 

[Tonguez]

This can be great for horror though

I think slow insidious poisons that take effect over time (Mummy rot) is more horrorfying though. I’d change Ivana and the ermordenung so they have the option of either the save or die attack or a insidious touch that does Con damage each morning until healed and which victims (PCs) may not even know they have been afflicted by (at least until they realise they are being forced to make daily saves)

 

[humble minion]

I think slow insidious poisons that take effect over time (Mummy rot) is more horrorfying though. I’d change Ivana and the ermordenung so they have the option of either the save or die attack or a insidious touch that does Con damage each morning until healed and which victims (PCs) may not even know they have been afflicted by (at least until they realise they are being forced to make daily saves)

Con damage isn’t really a thing in 5e though (for understandable reasons - the idea of stat damage was nice but in-game it was a nightmare to continually recalculate your entire character sheet when it happened)

Something like levels of exhaustion that can’t be removed by resting might be an alternative implementation. But the sheer ease of magically curing poison in 5e makes any sort of long-term poison basically trivial.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I always liked the ermordenung narratively. I thought they were a great Ravenloft addition.

View attachment 135234

In practice they are a save or die every attack monster which I find generally unfun to use in actual combats.

Interesting character, but her weak point is discovering them is relatively easy if only the touch of a living animal,a canary for example, by a suspect (why does she wear gloves always? is enough to know that to be poisonous. Or she could be discovered accidentally when a hostile man hits her. In 5th Ed the enemies with save or die are too dangerous.

Other idea is the creation of agents totally inmune to the poison, to fight against ermordenung or to be their "company and comfort", or with an artificial heart created specifically to stand poisons with heartattack effect.

I would change her allowing normal pyshical contact most of time, or at least for a little time, but the poisonous attack is caused by a hidden natural weapons, maybe fangs or a grafted symbiont tentacle , or when a magic tatoo is activated. And some magic item to alter the self. Some agents could be created with a sleeping effect to catch alive certain targets (for example for a kidnapping).

 

[Guest 85555]

I think slow insidious poisons that take effect over time (Mummy rot) is more horrorfying though. I’d change Ivana and the ermordenung so they have the option of either the save or die attack or a insidious touch that does Con damage each morning until healed and which victims (PCs) may not even know they have been afflicted by (at least until they realise they are being forced to make daily saves)

It depends. Mummy rot can be horrifying. But knowing a monster can kill you with a touch is terrifying. I think you need both to have real horror. Lethality is very important IMO