D&D General Reading Ravenloft the setting

It was also a shift toward bringing in more fantasy elements as well.

For my part, I found the black box great for long campaigns with a central conceit that the players were pulled there from another place (or places). For me that worked better than intruding into an ongoing campaign and pulling characters into Ravenloft for a few sessions. It enabled a full campaign in the setting, while preserving the players as outsiders.
Funny you should mention that; Domains new options (and omissions) I think tried too hard to strip out the fantasy, much to it's detriment. The encounter tables were gone and replaced with mostly mundane beasts or the monster flavor of the domain.

On the PC side, they brought up demihumans but made them harder to play than in normal settings (higher ability score minimums, many including a 15) the soul new race was a variant of human.

On the class side, they omitted paladin, druid and bard for natives and added four new classes: avenger (a fighter basically with a tragic backstory) anchorite (a specialty priest of Ezra and the only good new class), arcanist (a gimped necromancer class with turn undead and a mechanic that guaranteed your pc would eventually go Evil) and g*psy, a rogue without thief skills, buy has some weak divination magic. Add all the changes to Ravenloft magic and even by DoD's standards is far less fantasy than your average Greyhawk game.
 

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Funny you should mention that; Domains new options (and omissions) I think tried too hard to strip out the fantasy, much to it's detriment. The encounter tables were gone and replaced with mostly mundane beasts or the monster flavor of the domain.

On the PC side, they brought up demihumans but made them harder to play than in normal settings (higher ability score minimums, many including a 15) the soul new race was a variant of human.

On the class side, they omitted paladin, druid and bard for natives and added four new classes: avenger (a fighter basically with a tragic backstory) anchorite (a specialty priest of Ezra and the only good new class), arcanist (a gimped necromancer class with turn undead and a mechanic that guaranteed your pc would eventually go Evil) and g*psy, a rogue without thief skills, buy has some weak divination magic. Add all the changes to Ravenloft magic and even by DoD's standards is far less fantasy than your average Greyhawk game.

The reason I said this was largely the Role of Fantasy section in DoD, which seemed to emphasize it much more than Black Box (which was very much downplaying the role of traditional fantasy).

I definitely wasn't a fan of how they handled encounters in DoD. But I don't know I found the black box's encounter tables pretty horror related overall (there were just more plentiful options). The first one is Black Box, the second DoD):

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On the class side, they omitted paladin, druid and bard for natives and added four new classes: avenger (a fighter basically with a tragic backstory) anchorite (a specialty priest of Ezra and the only good new class), arcanist (a gimped necromancer class with turn undead and a mechanic that guaranteed your pc would eventually go Evil) and g*psy, a rogue without thief skills, buy has some weak divination magic. Add all the changes to Ravenloft magic and even by DoD's standards is far less fantasy than your average Greyhawk game.

Fair points, it is possible I was reading too much into my memory of the advice section and that the specific content isn't as fantasy heavy as I recall
 

Trying to apply real world socio-economics to tiny monster-infested countries, bordered by nations with massively different technology levels and cultures seems just plain silly.

Ravenloft CANNOT function under real world logic.

It makes more sense to me to view Ravenloft as a series of matrix-like prisons or zoo enclosures, that only exist because the keepers maintain them. There are some real people and things in the cages, but most of it is stage-setting made out of shadowstuff. Oh, and Captain Pike is a dark lord.
 

Now we are in the 2021, and today lots of played have tested some strategy videogame about managing population. Population nees lots of food, and cultivation needs lot of space. Even with help by the magic the cities can't be totally self-sufficient. We are talking about regions where you don't find bandits because these are eaten by the monsters. And these fights against others for the "hunting territory".

I said some times they "ecosystem" of the demiplane of the dread needs a right balance between "predators and preys". If too many people are killed by the monsters then the generational replacement is lost and the demographic crisis would be lethal for the economy. Even the vampires of "World of Darkness" make an effort to "feed the cattle".
 
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I like Kartakass more than I expected to. It's been a while since I've read any of this stuff, and I remember it as always being one of the 'meh' domains for me, but rereading, it's characterful and interesting.

Our narrator starts with the usual overview of the geography and general landscape. We're talking deep rich primeval European-type forest here, blanketing a hilly lamscape, with the very few sizeable settlements clinging to major rivers. Logging is a big deal but never seems to actually reduce the forest's size. Enormously fertile, all sorts of trees and vegetables grow enthusiastically in black soil.

Kartakass is all about the wolves. We have a mundane sort of fauna here for the most part, as opposed to the howling ghost-and-goblyn-ridden wasteland of Forlorn or the radiomagical mutants of Hazlan. Wolves, boars, owls etc, including quasi-mythical dire and giant versions. There's a nice little anecdote about finding a wolf-eaten corpse of a dire boar - it's described as being a daunting beast 'the size of a wagon' which is quite a mental image when you picture it in front of you. But it does raise the old saw about the appropriateness of the D&D ruleset for a setting like this. In 3e a dire boar was something like CR4 if I remember right. Hardly much of a challenge for any group of about 2nd level or higher. In 5e it's even less threatening - and the pace of 5e leveling early in the campaign means that PCs will advance way beyond it very fast. Making a critter like this frightening to a tougher group? That's going to require some major statistical surgery. There's a definite assumption in a lot of Ravenloft setting material that PCs will be low level.

Of course the place is lousy with wolf shapeshifters, both werewolf and (mostly) wolfwere. Our narrator goes out into the wilds with the aid of a helpful local, hoping to find some. On being assured that our narrator's pistols are loaded with silver against werewolves, the helpful local cheerfully assumes his true immune-to-silver wolfwere form - only to be magically paralysed and then forensically dissected alive in the interests of scientific research. Yikes. Narrator certainly saw you coming, guy.

On a technological note - this little anecdote also seems to illustrate that firearms are sufficiently widely known in the Core that even a logger in a backwater like Kartakass appears to be relatively familiar with them. They may be expensive or hard to obtain, but people know what they are.

We then have history. After the pages and pages of ancient Forlorn and Hazlan history int he last two chapters, this comes as something of a relief. Long-ago Kartakan history is more allegory and fable than a list of names and dates. You have myths and tales of Grandfather Wolf, Grandfather Boar, and Grandfather Owl, which resemble the Dreamtime stories of indigenous Australia or Aesop's Fables or the Brer Rabbit stories of (I think) American slaves. This actually makes a fair bit of sense in a bardic oral-tradition culture like Kartakass, and I like it quite a bit. There's a bit more recent history which is basically the Kargatane outlining the events of Feast of Goblyns and the novel Heart of Midnight from a slightly-better-informed-than-average in-world perspective, and to be honest it reads a bit awkwardly. What it does do is establish Harkon Lukas as something between an institution and a folktale. He's been around for hundreds of years (the locals think of him as an archetype like Grandfather Wolf, the name 'Harkon Lukas' a mantle worn by bard after bard), he's been the guy who chooses rulers or overthrows them, and currently is one.

Culturally, the place takes a lot from Grimm's fairy tales, there's a distinct rustic Germanic quality about it all. Poor farmers and loggers singing all day, fine woodcarvings on even the poorest house, beets and borscht and brau and those William Tell caps with feathers in them, a very low-key local and locally democratic government led by the winner of a singing competition (there are rules for entering the singing competition). It's almost anarchic in its idyllic facade of a happy rural populace who mind their own affairs, largely. Unless they're a wolfwere who wants to eat you, as we are reminded many, many times in the text. There are a couple of smallish towns (Lukas is the meistersinger of Skald, the larger one) but the population is widely scattered and every little hamlet has its own meistersinger. Religion is low-key - vague ancestor-reverence, with an emphasis on coming up with a song in your lifetime that's memorable enough that you'll be part of the ancestral choir too once you die. The formal church was founded by a previous meistersinger (later proven to be a wolfwere) and has few devout adherents, and generally struggles a bit.

Lukas is an odd darklord - possibly because he's one of the oldest (in real life) and stems from when TSR was still really figuring out the ground rules of Ravenloft, domains, Darklordship, etc. There's at least two novels about him which I read about 25 years ago and have almost completely forgotten, but from what sources i do have, the implication is that he's a wolfwere who craved power in the human world and was shunned among the more traditional wild/predatory wolfweres because of this. The character outline has him spree-massacring a mass of human farmers out of frustration with this state of affairs and being taken by the Mists after that, but it's an unanswered question whether he drew the notice of the Dark Powers for this massacre, or for the more subtle sin against wolfwere morality he committed through his ambition. Are the Dark Powers somehow moreal relativists who punish transgressions against monstrous moral codes and mores? In any rate, his damnation seems to have been to be penned in a tiny rustic backwater domain when he really wanted prominence, power, and rulership over great nations. He's made the usual couple of attempts to escape or to expand his domain through trickery, but Dark Powers said no. He's a manipulative, cunning, backhanded liar and a charming bastard who people believe even when they shouldn't. He's a very personable Darklord, and ther PCs are quite likely to bump into him as he wanders around Skald, and he offers a much different roleplaying dynamic than the various versions of Tristen apBlanc lurking in his castle or Hazlik who's probably only going to be interested in the PCs as experimental material.

As for using Kartakass in a game ... again, you have to have a reason to go there. There's a note saying that the best musical instruments in the Core are made here, so that might be motivation for a bard, especially one who wants to craft a magic instrument. And if PCs want to travel between Hazlan or Forlorn to Sithicus or the domains beyond, then riverboat through Kartakass is a pretty good way to do it. It'd be a pretty good place for an actual campaign though - the diffuse (and frequently furry and wanting-to-eat-you) government will often stay out of the way letting PCs do things their way. If you want to play a site-based, village-building type game with lots of recurring NPCs, (or a game where the PCs run a riverboat...) then Kartakass would be a great choice. And in Lukas, you've got a Darklord who is widely-known, accessible, even approachable - you can build up a good rivalry or emnity with him over a long time, he's not just going to crush you like a bug like Azalin or someone might. One issue might be the lack of variety in enemies. It's wolves, wolves, dire wolves, werewolves, wolves, wolfweres, and wolves. While there's a couple of sites that offer some variation, that's still going to drag in a long campaign, unless you introduce additional factors from outside.

As a 'weekend-in-hell' location, it has potential too, though it is something you'd have to write yourself from scratch. I don't think there's a quintessential 'Harkon Lukas' module from back in 2e - even though he appeared in Feast of Goblyns, i don't think he was the focus (and I don't think the module even really took place in Kartakass). Even using the soon-to-be-gone Core geography, it borders the Mists, so you could find your way there anytime you were wandering through a sufficiently deep forest and the mist rose. Obviously as an adventure location rather than a campaign location, wolfweres are going to be your bad guys, you're going to be chased through the woods by howling murder machines at some point, and someone you trust is going to turn furry and try to eat your head, and it'd be very easy to have Lukas conducting the whole situation as part of some machavellian plot behind the scenes, whether the PCs ever find this out or not.

Random class generator gave me rogue today, which was a relief because i have no idea how i'd have done a Kartakan wizard or warlock. Kartakans are merry types who like to wear bright colours even if they're hard up for funds. So this PCs is a poor but personable orphan (parents got et...) who roams the river, doing a bit of trading and a bit of guiding and a bit of trapping or guarding to earn a crust, supplementing it with some light thievery when things get tight. But she doesn't really like doing that, so if there's an opportunity for treasure-hunting in good company, she'll be on it like a shot.

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That's the last domain in Gazetteer I, so next is a few notes on the book as a whole, and then it's on to Darkon.
 

The Gazetteers are not pretty books. They're softcover and black and white throughout. The only art is in the appendix, for new monsters or to go with NPC profiles. The maps are awful, it looks like they're muddy greyscale fragments of a larger map blown up and with a few extra placenames stuck on, if you're lucky. They didn't even bother scaling the border lines etc in the magnification process, so they're so thick it looks like someone's scrawled all over the thing with a permanent marker. It's hard to tell the difference between roads and borders and goodness knows what else. And of course there's no scale. They really are some of the most useless maps I've ever seen in a RPG supplement.

This is not entirely unusual for when they were made though. I think Gaz I dates back to 2001, which is not that long after the release of 3e. Even WotC was doing a lot of their sourcebooks (Sword and Fist etc) in black and white softback at the time, colour hardbacks were reserved for rare major events like the 3e FRCS. And the majority of White Wolf's own WoD line was done in B&W softcover. However, the lack of art, and the mess that is the maps, does tell me that these were done on the cheap. Certainly compared to WotCs similar FR regional sourcebooks, like Silver Marches and Unapproachable East, which came along the year after this and were full colour hardbacks with beautiful production values, they look distinctly second-rate. I think they were very much labors of love for the Kargatane, they're huge Ravenloft fanboys and completists (in a good way) and being able to write for the setting must have been a dream come true. These are books you get for the substance rather than the visuals.

They do have the feel of being written by fanboys though. There's a distinct completionist note to this book, little mentions of all sorts of minor trivia and NPCs and sites from all sorts of Ravenloft adventures etc, which work as a nod-and-wink to loremaster readers, and do function to imply a deeper, wider world than the authors have word count to actually cover, but they perhaps don't add that much to the piece as a standalone book. Also I think the Kargatane's undoubtedly vast knowledge of the prior material means that in some cases they were perhaps a little too unwilling to just retcon stuff when doing so would have improved the setting. Or perhaps they were obliged to scrupulously respect canon as part of the S&S licence agreement with WotC, I don't know.

The preferences of the authors re how to run a Ravenloft game is very clear here. The clear assumption is that PCs will be natives rather than dragged by the Mists from another plane. For each domain we have a sidebar talking about the most characteristic PC classes, skills, feats, names etc for a character originating there, and there's no talk at all about basically anyone who's arrived via the mists since the Domains showed up. There's not even discussion of the possibility (perhaps not 100% surprising because this is, after all, a regional sourcebook focusing on local matters, but still). For the people who like Ravenloft as a one-off adventure destination - "the mists rise, and when they dissipate again you see a tall ruined castle before you against the night sky..." - there's basically nothing for them here that they can't find in the 2e modules designed for that sort of thing.

Also, the authors have their clear favourites in Azalin/Darkon and Malocchio/Invidia. This will become more clear as we progress through the Gazetteers, but even in the first, which covers neither of these places, it shows a little. I want to one day read a Ravenloft sourcebook by someone who really, really loves Paridon and Har-Akir.

One thing i do like for its campaign potential is the emphasis on Mistways. In a weekend-in-hell type story they're pretty much irrelevant, but in a campaign where the world is a living place, then they do offer cool possibilities. Think of them as a secret mostly-reliable teleportation circle that can't be dispelled, and then think of the possibilities. Shepherding refugees through them. Smuggling or trade, if the PCs are into that kind of thing. Spies or military forces trying to use them. Monsters seeping out through them - there's a speculative mistway from Kartakass to Bluetspur, if you get sick of sausages and wolves and schlagermusik and want a bit of alien brain-eating in your Kartakan campaign without having to travel too far, then it's right there waiting for you. Hell, even from a mate point of view, if you're interested in say, Sithicus and Nova Vaasa (or two other widely-separated domains) but nothing in between particularly interests you, then just invent a mistway between the two and you're set to play a game in the bits you like without either having to spend time on the bits you don't , or fiddle about rewriting the setting to your tastes.
 
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I definitely wasn't a fan of how they handled encounters in DoD. But I don't know I found the black box's encounter tables pretty horror related overall (there were just more plentiful options). The first one is Black Box, the second DoD):
It's definitely the weakest element in DoD's domain write-ups, and one of those areas they could have borrowed the real-estate used to reprint ability score tables from the PHB verbatim and instead added more info into the domains.
 
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The preferences of the authors re how to run a Ravenloft game is very clear here. The clear assumption is that PCs will be natives rather than dragged by the Mists from another plane. For each domain we have a sidebar talking about the most characteristic PC classes, skills, feats, names etc for a character originating there, and there's no talk at all about basically anyone who's arrived via the mists since the Domains showed up. There's not even discussion of the possibility (perhaps not 100% surprising because this is, after all, a regional sourcebook focusing on local matters, but still). For the people who like Ravenloft as a one-off adventure destination - "the mists rise, and when they dissipate again you see a tall ruined castle before you against the night sky..." - there's basically nothing for them here that they can't find in the 2e modules designed for that sort of thing.
I think that was partially due to the nature of the license. WW had licensed the use of Ravenloft's IP, but not the surrounding TSR era settings RL pulled from. So, they couldn't (even if they wanted to) use the greater multiverse, so they downplayed its role of the Mists grabbing you from other settings. This is especially true for the history of the Darklords of domains like Hazlin and Sithicus which are whole-cloth "a bit of this other setting, but spookier" or the fact they omit Bane and Nerull's names for titles like "The Lawgiver" and "The Reaper". IIRC, they go through the whole description of Sithicus without ever saying Soth's name once!

Of course, this is partially an expansion of the "campaign setting" mode that Domains of Dread began, and it certainly helps sell sourcebooks if your PCs are from that setting and using a specific prestige classes, races, equipment, etc. bought from your other supplements. But I think the biggest reason WW's Ravenloft is so insular is that just the nature of the license.
 

The Gazetteers are not pretty books. They're softcover and black and white throughout. The only art is in the appendix, for new monsters or to go with NPC profiles. The maps are awful, it looks like they're muddy greyscale fragments of a larger map blown up and with a few extra placenames stuck on, if you're lucky. They didn't even bother scaling the border lines etc in the magnification process, so they're so thick it looks like someone's scrawled all over the thing with a permanent marker. It's hard to tell the difference between roads and borders and goodness knows what else. And of course there's no scale. They really are some of the most useless maps I've ever seen in a RPG supplement.

This is not entirely unusual for when they were made though. I think Gaz I dates back to 2001, which is not that long after the release of 3e. Even WotC was doing a lot of their sourcebooks (Sword and Fist etc) in black and white softback at the time, colour hardbacks were reserved for rare major events like the 3e FRCS. And the majority of White Wolf's own WoD line was done in B&W softcover. However, the lack of art, and the mess that is the maps, does tell me that these were done on the cheap.

I don't think the art was particular good. But I will say in fairness, black and white art wasn't just the norm up to this point for most supplements and settings, but it was part of the Ravenloft brand (Ravenloft made heavy use of black and white Stephen Fabian art in the 90s and that really became associated with it). Even in the ravenloft line itself during TSR, the art quality started to wane (as did the layout). If you look at RoT, that thing won awards for its presentation (and I would say it deserved to). Van Richten books and early modules had a similar look and feel (even if some didn't have Fabian handling the interior art). But towards the end of the 90s Ravenloft line the layout switched to much heavier use of white space, and a different look for the presentation. By the time the Gazetteers came out, they really were not that far from how some of the later modules looked.
 

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