What I mean is Ravenloft clearly laid out a framework of gothic+classic horror. And I think classic horror is somewhat malleable, but the important thing is it is not modern: it draws from silent horror movies, black and white, and hammer films.
Although they had the doppelganger plant, which is clearly from Invasion of the Body Snatchers (and they only "appear after some omen of doom, such as a meteor shower" (which makes no sense when you remember that the Domains aren't on a planet), and reavers, which are very much Creatures From The Black Lagoon. The gremishka (which are in the Black Box), which are clearly an homage to Gremlins. All those evil doll movies are pretty darn modern, and RL has doll golems as a result. The viruses from RL MCIII were much more clearly based on modern SF horror than anything gothic or classic. And those vampyres seem very Interview With a Vampire to me, what with their nightclubs and wearing sunglasses at night and all. And those are just the references I get.
I am not sure on that one but it is still much more in the classic mold (there were lots of TVs shows from that era inspired by classic horror monsters)
Although they had the doppelganger plant, which is clearly from Invasion of the Body Snatchers (and they only "appear after some omen of doom, such as a meteor shower" (which makes no sense when you remember that the Domains aren't on a planet), and reavers, which are very much Creatures From The Black Lagoon. The gremishka (which are in the Black Box), which are clearly an homage to Gremlins. All those evil doll movies are pretty darn modern, and RL has doll golems as a result. The viruses from RL MCIII were much more clearly based on modern SF horror than anything gothic or classic. And those vampyres seem very Interview With a Vampire to me, what with their nightclubs and wearing sunglasses at night and all. And those are just the references I get.
Sure and you can blend that stuff in in a classic way. But the dolls, to me came off as puppet master like: which if you watch it is more classic horror IMO than say chucky (and I like chucky: just wouldn’t put him in Ravenloft). Plus there is gothic literature that touches on that kind of horror (not a huge leap from Hoffman’s Automaton to animate dolls). Gremlins is Joe Dante, who also did the howling. I would put his stuff more in the classic mold even though it can’t put in the 80s (gremlins to me fit the classic monster style). And gremlins themselves are an old trope (the point of the old man’s story about gremlins in airplanes was to connect them to that idea: there is a twilight episode about a gremlin for example). That stuff wasn’t what the writer of black box was arguing against: the black box is against heavy nude of gore, high body counts over subtle building of terror. It is about taking a more patient approach to horror. On the vampyre front: there is no doubt in my mind Ravenloft at times started emulating the masquerade and that always felt off to me (I just didn’t see Ravenloft as very goth club oriented like vampire was). Though I will point out those sunglasses might have been inspired by Gary Old man’s portrayal of Dracula rather than clubbing vampires (don’t remember what year Vampyres were introduced)
Unfortunately, it's not a uncommon belief. You see it with people who argue the 84 Greyhawk folio was Gygax's true vision before it was corrupted by the From the Ashes box. Or Dragonlance beyond the Dragons of Summer Flame. Outside of gaming, I've interacted with people who refuse to accept any Star Wars movies beyond 1983 as legitimate, including the 97 special editions. Or Doctor Who fans who don't accept anything beyond the original run that ended in 89. (The legitimacy of McGann's 8th and Ecccleston's 9th Doctors were rejected for years following the revivals).
I think it is more like saying the original star wars trilogy was better than the prequels (which is a sound point of view: people like the prequels but in terms of film quality, the original trilogy I would say is leagues better: classics for a reason). We don't have to agree on art and games. I wasn't trying to be polemical (if it sounded polemical it is because I was responding to a poster who was taking an extremely hostile tone to my posts)
They have carrionettes for that. And the art in MMI for the Doll Golem is totally Chucky. I'd bet anything if Toy Story had come out before Ravenloft did, there would be more of a generic Toy Golem and the illustrations would be based on Sid's toys.
which if you watch it is more classic horror IMO than say chucky (and I like chucky: just wouldn’t put him in Ravenloft). Plus there is gothic literature that touches on that kind of horror (not a huge leap from Hoffman’s Automaton to animate dolls). Gremlins is Joe Dante, who also did the howling. I would put his stuff more in the classic mold even though it can’t put in the 80s (gremlins to me fit the classic monster style). And gremlins themselves are an old trope (the point of the old man’s story about gremlins in airplanes was to connect them to that idea: there is a twilight episode about a gremlin for example).
Yes, I've seen that one. Those gremlins are the ones invented in the 20s, the ones who destroy machinery. The gremlins of the movie Gremlins are clearly of a different type, and the gremishka are much more clearly related to Mogwai's evil kin then they are to the big galoot that drove Shatner insane.
Gremlin from Twilight Zone.
Gremlins on WWII propaganda poster.
Gremlin from the movie Gremlins.
Ravenloft's gremishka.
Hmmm.
It sounds to me that you define "classic horror" as "anything non-slasher, unless it doesn't 'feel right' to me, in which case it's not classic."
On the vampyre front: there is no doubt in my mind Ravenloft at times started emulating the masquerade and that always felt off to me (I just didn’t see Ravenloft as very goth club oriented like vampire was). Though I will point out those sunglasses might have been inspired by Gary Old man’s portrayal of Dracula rather than clubbing vampires (don’t remember what year Vampyres were introduced)
Vampyres are from the very first Ravenloft MC. You know, the one published only one year after the black box and before VtM came out (Amazon lists MC10 as coming out May '91, and VtM 1e as Jan '92).
It looks like you simply dismiss whatever it is you don't like as being "influenced" by something not properly gothic, instead of actually admitting that Ravenloft has never been limited to only gothic horror, but instead has always drawn from a variety of sources.
We get it. You prefer only gothic in your gothic horror. But mixing in other types of horror doesn't ruin or dilute Ravenloft one bit; it just makes it more varied and interesting.
Yes, I've seen that one. Those gremlins are the ones invented in the 20s, the ones who destroy machinery. The gremlins of the movie Gremlins are clearly of a different type, and the gremishka are much more clearly related to Mogwai's evil kin then they are to the big galoot that drove Shatner insane.
But the point is they are based on the same basic concept (the gremlins in the movie wreak havoc by messing with machinery like traffic lights, vehicles, electric chairs, etc)
Sure and you can blend that stuff in in a classic way. But the dolls, to me came off as puppet master like: which if you watch it is more classic horror IMO than say chucky (and I like chucky: just wouldn’t put him in Ravenloft). Plus there is gothic literature that touches on that kind of horror (not a huge leap from Hoffman’s Automaton to animate dolls). Gremlins is Joe Dante, who also did the howling. I would put his stuff more in the classic mold even though it can’t put in the 80s (gremlins to me fit the classic monster style). And gremlins themselves are an old trope (the point of the old man’s story about gremlins in airplanes was to connect them to that idea: there is a twilight episode about a gremlin for example). That stuff wasn’t what the writer of black box was arguing against: the black box is against heavy nude of gore, high body counts over subtle building of terror. It is about taking a more patient approach to horror. On the vampyre front: there is no doubt in my mind Ravenloft at times started emulating the masquerade and that always felt off to me (I just didn’t see Ravenloft as very goth club oriented like vampire was). Though I will point out those sunglasses might have been inspired by Gary Old man’s portrayal of Dracula rather than clubbing vampires (don’t remember what year Vampyres were introduced)
What!?! Puppet Master? Now we are right back to me being confused about this 'classic' horror subgenre.
I'm also not buying that all of Ravenloft has been the slow patient horror, and can think of a few campaigns I was in where there was a pretty high body count, or some heavy body horror.
Can't we just all have Ravenloft, and let it be the place for horror in D&D? I feel like we are going to start doing horror film/story gymnastics trying to make things fit into one or possibly two subgenres.
They have carrionettes for that. And the art in MMI for the Doll Golem is totally Chucky. I'd bet anything if Toy Story had come out before Ravenloft did, there would be more of a generic Toy Golem and the illustrations would be based on Sid's toys.
I really don't think they would have gone toy story. There were doll horror movies and puppet horror moves prior to the 80s. I do agree the doll golem looked like Chucky. The Carrionettes were based on Pinocchio of all things. Again, you can blend genres. Fairtales and classic stories blended with gothic seemed to work pretty well for Ravenloft. But I think blending in Toy Story would have felt very strange at the time.
They have carrionettes for that. And the art in MMI for the Doll Golem is totally Chucky. I'd bet anything if Toy Story had come out before Ravenloft did, there would be more of a generic Toy Golem and the illustrations would be based on Sid's toys.
Yes, I've seen that one. Those gremlins are the ones invented in the 20s, the ones who destroy machinery. The gremlins of the movie Gremlins are clearly of a different type, and the gremishka are much more clearly related to Mogwai's evil kin then they are to the big galoot that drove Shatner insane.
It sounds to me that you define "classic horror" as "anything non-slasher, unless it doesn't 'feel right' to me, in which case it's not classic."
Vampyres are from the very first Ravenloft MC. You know, the one published only one year after the black box and before VtM came out (Amazon lists MC10 as coming out May '91, and VtM 1e as Jan '92).
It looks like you simply dismiss whatever it is you don't like as being "influenced" by something not properly gothic, instead of actually admitting that Ravenloft has never been limited to only gothic horror, but instead has always drawn from a variety of sources.
We get it. You prefer only gothic in your gothic horror. But mixing in other types of horror doesn't ruin or dilute Ravenloft one bit; it just makes it more varied and interesting.
My point was just that puppet master has a kind of classic vibe to it. It doesn't feel like Friday the 13th to me. It definitely has cheesy 80s stuff and more gore than you would have in Ravenloft. But it is pretty atmospheric, has a solid backstory and a real classic kind of location and plot.
