Readying Spells (kinda long)

[xXxTheBeastxXx]

I'm attempting to create a "spells readied" system for my PF games, similar to what was established in Arcana Evolved. The idea, if you don't know the "readied" system already, is that prepared casters have a number of spells "readied", or memorized, and this essentially becomes their list of spells known until they decide to ready new spells. Their spells per day become a separate list altogether.

This alters the existing system by granting prepared casters an amount of spontaneity in their casting. No longer do they have to prepare 3 fireballs to cast fireball 3 times. They only have to ready it once, then they can expend as many spell slots as needed on it throughout the day.

At the moment, the readied list of any caster is equivalent in size to his spells per day list. So a 5th level wizard can ready 4 0-levels, 3 1st-levels, 2 2nd-levels, and 1 3rd level (with bonuses for a high int thrown in), and then freely choose to spontaneously cast from this readied list.

Understandably, this gives a significant boost to the power of prepared casters (whose massive spell lists already gave them the advantage). And that's where I take issue. I love the idea of a readied list. The concept of a wizard "forgetting" his spell after he casts it has always been ridiculous, and this system solves it. However, this makes spontaneous casters nearly worthless, except from a flavor standpoint. A sorcerer might know N spells, and be able to cast them at will, but a wizard knows 3 to 4N spells and now he can ready them, creating his own spontaneous list.

My question is, what do I do to balance this? I don't really care about balancing with martial characters, as I usually treat magic as being more powerful than martial talent by definition anyway. But how do I balance--or at least moderately balance--the rift a "ready" system creates between prepared casters and spontaneous casters?

My ideas so far are as follows:

1-Allow spontaneous casters a bonus to their spells known based on their charisma modifier. The main boon of this is that it allows the sorcerer more versatility. As their charisma increases, so does their selection of spells and--thus--so does their power. I've actually been in favor of this idea for a while. I hate fixed numbers in classes, and think that the character itself should come into play more often.

2-create a separate, smaller list for spells readied rather than use the spells per day list as a basis. This gives the advantage (from a balance standpoint) of reducing the spontaneity of the prepared casters. However, I hate taking something away from a class, and am really leaning away from this one.

3-give spontaneous casters some other bonus. Whether it be a class feature bonus or something else entirely (enhanced BAB and HD? an extra good save? Feats?) One idea I have is sort of a "primal boost" ability. A pool of points that a spontaneous caster has that they can use to increase their effective caster level whenever they cast a spell.


As I mentioned before. Flavor-wise, I consider magic to be greater than martial prowess by definition. And, in that vein of thinking, I would think that natural magic would be on par--if not better than--learned magic. If I do implement this "readied" system (which I most likely will, since it works so well), I would like to balance my casters against each other.

Any input is more than appreciated. Should I use any of these ideas? Should I forgo them all and just live with the consequences of powerful prepared casters?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I don't really care about balancing with martial characters, as I usually treat magic as being more powerful than martial talent by definition anyway.

"So, pick a class - any class! - just... don't pick those ones, because... well, because they suck."

"Um, OK. I, uh... play a caster."

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

I really think that making Wizards effectively spontaneous casters REALLY steps on the toes of the existing spontaneous casters (but you pointed that out). Of the three ideas you mentioned I like the third. (I'd say combining the second and third but you've already indicated that you're leaning away from the second).

I think if Wizards will be allowed to cast spontaneously, Sorcerer's (and other spontaneous casters) need a significant power boost as well - the idea that they can cast their limited number of spell at an increased power level fits the bill. The question becomes how much to increase the power level, and how many points to put in the pool in order to make them balanced (again).

Note that I abhor power creep, and this seems to be a recipe for that very thing so it's not something I'd ever do. But what makes the game great is that you can tailor it to suit your (and your group's) enjoyment so "more power to you!"

 

[bobhayes]

Balancing it out is easy. Just make readied spells burn 2x or 3x the number of spell slots - yeah, you can cast your readied fireball over and over but it does cost you two 3rd level slots to do it. Since slots are limited, I'd go with spell levels rather than slots - you can burn a 6th level spell to cast your readied fireball, or a 4th and a 2nd, or six 1sts, etc.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Comments in no particular order:

(1) Don't be surprised if you end up with all spellcasters. The last thing spellcasters need is a power boost relative to the other classes. It's all well and good to say that a GM can "balance on the fly," and I'd like to believe it of myself, and it's all well and good to think some players will trust in that and pick a clearly suboptimal class, and I'd like to believe that of myself, but in practice, class balance is a good thing. It's not all-important, but it's a good thing.

(2) I like the readied system, as well, but it's not a coincidence that Monte basically removed spontaneous casters.

(3) If I were working on this, and wanted to keep a meaningful difference between spontaneous and learned casters, I'd give some thought to adding drawbacks to the learned casters' spellcasting. I don't know what, exactly, but I'd be thinking about Fortitude saves for ability damage or other effects. Possibly even permanent effects for rolling a 1 on the save. (Gives some flavor about magic that doesn't come naturally warping and twisting the body.)

 

[xXxTheBeastxXx]

"So, pick a class - any class! - just... don't pick those ones, because... well, because they suck."

"Um, OK. I, uh... play a caster."

Comments in no particular order:

(1) Don't be surprised if you end up with all spellcasters. The last thing spellcasters need is a power boost relative to the other classes. It's all well and good to say that a GM can "balance on the fly," and I'd like to believe it of myself, and it's all well and good to think some players will trust in that and pick a clearly suboptimal class, and I'd like to believe that of myself, but in practice, class balance is a good thing. It's not all-important, but it's a good thing.

(2) I like the readied system, as well, but it's not a coincidence that Monte basically removed spontaneous casters.

(3) If I were working on this, and wanted to keep a meaningful difference between spontaneous and learned casters, I'd give some thought to adding drawbacks to the learned casters' spellcasting. I don't know what, exactly, but I'd be thinking about Fortitude saves for ability damage or other effects. Possibly even permanent effects for rolling a 1 on the save. (Gives some flavor about magic that doesn't come naturally warping and twisting the body.)

Response 1 - Martial vs. Magic: This, for me, is more a flavor thing than anything else. And, lucky for me, my group is very agreeable in this matter. I believe, simply, that magic should be more powerful than martial combat by definition. It's farging magic, after all. Throwing bolts of lightning, destroying stone walls with a thought, creating things that aren't really there. All of these are beyond the scope of a warrior, so why, exactly, is a mage considered to be an equal? Yes, they are squishy, and that comes with the concept of hard study (and whatever limits sorcerers) rather than physical training. But they can make your brain explode.

Is this to say that I think mages should be overwhelmingly superior? No. Absolutely not. As Jeff stated, balance is a good thing. I just think that magic should be better. It's the stuff of legends.

This said, I absolutely understand the problem, getting a party of casters. Fortunately for me: my group understands and, for the most part, agrees.


Response 2 - Prepared vs. Readied vs. Spontaneous: If I could re-make the casting system, I would have three types of magic. I would call them "Natural" magic, "Learned" magic, and "Granted" magic. Natural would be spontaneous casters for whom magic flows through their veins. Learned would be magic that is, literally, learned through study and must be prepared. And Granted would be divine magic, gifted by the gods. All would function differently and have their own sets of rules.

As it stands, I don't have the time for something like that. So, instead, I get to work with what I'm given. First, let me justify my love of the readied system. It's all about the flavor. I understand the idea of preparing and forgetting spells. It makes sense to me, from a balance standpoint. However, it makes almost NO sense from a flavor standpoint. I'm a wizard. I study 5 spells at the beginning of the day. I cast one of them and...forget it completely until tomorrow? Do I forget a studied test answer the moment I write it down? Do I forget how to change a tire the moment I do it? No. So why should I forget my spell? I studied it, after all.

Round 1: "Fireball! Hah! Take that, orcs!"

Round 2: "Oh, no! A white dragon! I should cast fireball, but dammit I can't remember how! Curse you, six seconds!"

A readied system just makes more sense. You study a spell at the beginning of the day, and can then cast it until you run out of energy. Tada! As stated, however, it causes a rift between spontaneous casters and "readied" casters. Readied casters are better. No questions asked. Now, how put spontaneous casters on the same level?

Well, there are a few Ideas I like. Jeff's idea of creating drawbacks on learned casters' casting is a cool idea. Saving for ability damage might be a little harsh, but fatigue? Exhaustion at a certain point? Not out of the question.

I also posted this thread on the paizo boards, and Kyrt-Ryder suggested an idea that I like. Maybe give the caster a small number of "ready slots." He suggested 2 per spell level. The caster then prepares spells normally, and any open, un-prepared slots can be filled at will with these readied spells.


Response 3 - Conclusions: In the end, I think I'm going with a combination of Kyrt-ryder's idea and the concept of giving spontaneous casters a pool of points to allow them to boost their caster level with spells. As stated by Mowgli, this lends to power creep. But I trust my players enough not to abuse it. I'll post my final rules on this thread once I figure them out.

As a second note, I think I will, slowly, work on the idea of re-writing the casting system, creating the three castes: Natural, Learned, and Granted magic. I'll get back to ENworld when I figure something out. Maybe I'll play with words of power. I always liked the idea of spontaneous casters "crafting" their spells on the fly, as opposed to using pre-established staples.

Thanks for the feedback, and I hope to get more.

-The Beast

 

[Aus_Snow]

I just think that magic should be better. It's the stuff of legends.

The stuff of legends? No more so than melee (or ranged, or unarmed) combat. Most likely less so. Checked out a bunch of legends lately?

Not to mention much of the most important (relevant) literature.

This said, I absolutely understand the problem, getting a party of casters. Fortunately for me: my group understands and, for the most part, agrees.

That's cool then. I'm not here to tell you your decisions are wrong. Just that I'm having difficulty fully understanding the reasoning behind them. Crucial difference, 'n all.

But hey, it sounds like you and your group have everything sorted, so yeah. No big.

 

[Baveboi]

It might be a bit off-topic, but as an old timer wizard I have to say one thing.

Round 1: "Fireball! Hah! Take that, orcs!"

Round 2: "Oh, no! A white dragon! I should cast fireball, but dammit I can't remember how! Curse you, six seconds!"

-The Beast

"And that's why, my son, that there is no such thing as an unprepared wizard. Not for long."

Seriously, they go hack a White Dragon and he decides to use his Fireball on the orcs? IMHO that wizard shouldn't have learned magic in the first place.
For crying out loud, any wizard below anything near epic that foolhardily insists his best choice of action is a damage spell is not as bright as his Int modifier suggests he is.

Ok, to quote our friend, let's think here; a white dragon. He's vulnerable to fire, have poor SR and so-so saves. Yes, a Fireball is a good choice. But it won't kill the thing.
So you have one chance to actually disabling it or you are pretty much a popsicle by now.
For sakes, even a group of orcs could EASILY survive a Fireball and hack the wizard to tiny bits if he isn't prepared.

That's the idea. Preparation.

So what spell would I cast on the Dragon, do you ask?
Any spell to get the pesky thing down, like Earthen Grasp, maybe a Web on it's mouth or Ice Wall in front of the party for cover (I don't believe ice breath can damage an Ice Wall).
And then fire wall on the thing's present location, use the fighters to flank it, the rogues to sneak up on it, climb his face and rip out his eyes with tiny toothpicks. It's teamwork.

And this is ONE example of what to do with ONE beast. To all the others there is always 18 int score.
"Do the impossible, see the invisible. Stop the unstoppable, break the unbreakable." _Liberame From Hell




A wizard's job is beyond simple Damage Dealing. It goes all the way into the Possibility and Preparation territory.
Think Contingency, Spell Matrix, Greater Celerity, Time Stop and many, many others.

Sorry about the rant and the wall of text. It is a touchy subject to me.
Anyway, I hope this can cast some Light on your opinion about wizards.

EDIT: Grammar is my bane.