Reasoning behind Extended Rests?

[Runestar]

Most combats in 4e don't require a daily to win, however. Nor do they use up more than 3 healing surges to every member of the party(which means everyone has at least 3 left for the next battle).

In reality, I think what really happens is that the party defender ends up burning most/all his surges within 2-3 battles (between 2nd wind, healing word, short rests and the like), while the rest of the PCs still retain most of theirs. Then you end up with the problem of the defender not being able to perform his role properly, and the rest of the party being unable to effectively fill in for him.

And because there is no unifying mechanic for transferring surges from 1 PC to another (unlike in 3e, where you at least still had wands of CLW/vigor), your party is really only as durable as the PC with the least number of surges. There is no point to the other 4 PCs still retaining all their surges and being at full hp, when the party fighter has none left, is on the brink of death, and the target of focused fire from the enemies.

So you still have to stop either way.

 

[CapnZapp]

In several places, you set me up as a straw man. Please discontinue this practice.

The key is that the 15-minute adventuring day wasn't something the PCs CHOSE to do, but something that was forced on them by the game system. If the PCs CHOOSE to rest after every encounter, then they can do it just as well in this edition as any other edition.

When WotC says "the 15-min day is gone" I expected them to remove the root of the problem, the fact that in order to recharge your powers you must spend a stipulated but arbitrary long period of inactive time (18 hours in 4E). Alternatively, to have introduced - in the rules - a set penalty of taking the extended rest option that you could weigh against the advantages and disadvantages of plowing on.

Or, as before, to have acknowledged that the cost of taking extended rests vary tremendously between adventures, and because of this, the rules can't give more than a suggested cost (=18 hours) with the final decision being up to the DM. Much like milestones, which default to 2 encounters, but which can easily be overridden by the DM!

But the original idea behind the 15-minute adventuring day was that:

I am perfectly aware of the concept and its ramifications, thank you very much.

Because they wanted to keep the sense of tension that comes from ever dwindling resources as you press on in your quest to do something heroic. It means you are risking more to save the princess if each battle you fight makes it less likely to survive the next one.

But this forces adventure designers to take into account the opposition and allocate a number of days to complete the mission. Any story that would work better on the daily or yearly timescale - or one where the component of time isn't the critical one - is hosed.

And none of this is discussed by the DMG!

If you want to remove that tension, it is really easy to simply say that all short rests give you the same benefits as an extended rest.

It's really easy. But really stupid and not a solution too. Thanks but no thanks.



But I guess I have my answer. The answer is: there is no answer.

Thanks all /Zapp

PS. Again thanks Runestar. Yes, it seems that while milestones etc allow a party to continue on more than 1-2 fights, they still have to rest well within the first hour of each day's dungeon clean-out.

In effect, the 15-minute day have been doubled or quadrupled. Wow. *sarcasm*

 

[Runestar]

PS. Again thanks Runestar. Yes, it seems that while milestones etc allow a party to continue on more than 1-2 fights, they still have to rest well within the first hour of each day's dungeon clean-out.

I think that (milestones giving you more incentive to push on) might have been the original intention of the designers (eg: the more you adventure, the more you get drained of a certain type of resource, but the more you gain in another resource, presumably balancing each other out). But it could be that playtesting broke down somewhere, and the final effect of milestones failed to live up to its premise.

As it stands now, the concept of milestones seems like utter rubbish. Why not just go with how Eberron handled APs in 3e (where you just received a fixed allotment at the start of every level)? Let the PCs decide how they want to spend it. Maybe impose some limits if you don't want your party hoarding them till the final fight and burning 10+ APs in a single nova'ish attack.

In the very least, you are still sorely limited by hp and a very restrictive healing mechanic (heck, even potions consume surges). When your fighter runs dry, the only alternative seems to be to hide under the wizard's skirt and have him tank in place of you (because he now has the hp to spare). Doesn't seem very defender'ish of a fighter whose job is well, defend the very PCs he is now looking to for protection.

At the moment, for me at least, milestones hold no encouragement. The boon they grant is nice if my party decides to press on, but I am not going to want to press on because of whatever benefits milestones may grant me.

 

[DracoSuave]

The solution to taking too many extended rests and the '15 minute work day' is very simple.

The DM grows a pair.

You set a time limit, and within that time limit, the PCs have the freedom to conquer it as they choose. Let them decide to spend their extended rests as they wish. If they blow it all on novas early... they'll have none going up to the final encounter. If they, instead, pace themselves, they'll be less harassed and perhaps earn an 'early finish' bonus.

These are supposed to be heroes here, embarking on a journey to accomplish a task against forces that are out to stop them. The very -idea- that these forces sit idly by waiting for heroes to come in and kill them is ludicrous. If you have 15-minute work days, in -any- rpg, in -any- edition, that's your own fault and it's the responsibility of the DM to control the pacing of the story.

You can't, and shouldn't, require game rules to do your damn job for you.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

My question is: WotC claims to have abolished the 15-adventure day. I don't see where and how.

So go back and read the section on milestones again, as several people have pointed out above. Go and look at rings and the way they increase in power when characters reach a milestone. These are both excellent ideas.

Also - the 12 hour limit between extended rests.

As far as I understand it, it is always more beneficial to take an extended rest than to plow on. There are no built-in penalties to taking extended rests other than time consumption - which is exactly the same as in 3rd Edition! How is that a solution?

AFAIK, the only thing 4th does better than 3rd is granting some modicum of "plow-on" capability when you're forced to continue past the first 15 minutes of each adventuring day.

And then my real, underlying (philosophical even) question: why have Wizards kept the adventuring day at all? Why force adventurers to rest just to regain their powers? Couldn't there have been a better solution (to avoid everyone blowing their dailies in each encounter)?

OK, so if you don't rest to recuperate powers, can you come up with a better alternative?

Dailies are not the be-all and end-all of combat. It's not like having 3rd 3.5e characters that can, once a day, use a 7th level spell or anything like that. They're better, sure, but they're not the only way to kill difficult monsters. I mean, do you use your daily power when you meet 5 kobolds, three of whom are minions, just because you can? Or do you horde your resources for a more critical fight?

My question to you is - why are you so convinced you need to use your daily in every encounter? Have another look at them, they're not massively overpowerful.

There are tangible & real benefits to not taking extended rests all of the time. If you play in a group where you're not interested in that, or the DM can't be bothered to make you suffer for going ahead with 1 encounter, 1 extended rest, 1 encounter, 1 extended rest then that's your style and I hope you're happy with it. But the rules (milestones & use of healing surges) support the idea that characters press on and keep fighting, quite clearly.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Things you CANNOT DO without passing milestones:

(a) Get rid of penalties from Raise Dead
(b) Use more than 1 magic item daily ability (per tier)

After a number of milestones, it is possible to go "more" nova than before.

In general though, the 15-minute workday is going to come up less often because:

(a) The encounter system is vastly different than 3e. Back then, the encounter system was supposed to wittle you down over time so that the LAST encounter is a nail biter ... it was about conserving your resources. However, you could always overspend your resources and have a bunch of easier fights and just rest a bit earlier. Eventually, certain groups basically embraced the idea of a the 15-minute workday where they would be one REALLY TOUGH encounter where they have to go nova, that way there is a challenging fight that doesn't rely on the players to "hold back" for it to be challenging.

(b) The DM doesn't have to feel as bad for attacking a group during an extended rest to discourage the 15-minute. The party, even if it's out of daily powers, will still have all their encounter powers available, and if they just went nova then went to bed, they can't possibly be out of surges, as there is unlikely to be enough ways to spend their surges during the course of a single encounter.

So, the benefits of the 15-minute workday are reduced, the penalties for going on even after nova'ing are reduced, you can get back some of the stuff you get back while resting by continuing onward, you have a limited number of ways to use up some of your daily resources, like your healing surges, during a single encounter making it hard to use them all up, the players are still pretty solid after they use up all their daily powers, the DM is able to attack the PCs at night and the PCs will still have most of their powers available.

The 15 minute workday is still an option, but it is no longer a great or obvious option. If a DM doesn't like it, they can force the players to move on by having the encounters "come to them" when they try to sit around for about 18 hours to get their extended rest (about 12 hours to get access to the 6 hours of rest). The PCs aren't getting set up for slaughter ... as they probably would if a similar group were to nova their spells in 3e. In 4e, losing their dailies for later encounters might suck, but hopefully they'd learn that encounters and at-wills are often enough, and in the future using their dailies wisely and plugging along instead of trying to go for the fastest/easiest way isn't going to fly with the DM.

Summing up: In 3e, you pretty much had to TPK to punish the players for their 15 minute workday. If they nova'd the first encounter and were tapped out, and you sent another encounter in, you'd likely kill the party. In 4e that isn't the case. Can you nova in 4e? Yes. However you still have a LOT of fight left after you nova, and thus the DM isn't put into the situation of "let them rest or they WILL DIE" that they were in 3e. So the DM can basically sit the players down and say "You aren't going to get away with one encounter per day, unless it's a special situation. If you want to use up all your dailies in the first encounter, that is up to you ... but that's not a good enough excuse for needing an extended rest."

The 15 minute workday is, in part, a DM/player issue. 3e encouraged it more than 4e did because of the way resources worked, and the way that encounters worked. Encounter powers and healing surges (and ways to trigger healing surges during an encounter) are all helpful in extending the adventuring day.

 

[Jhaelen]

When WotC says "the 15-min day is gone" I expected them to remove the root of the problem
[...]
But I guess I have my answer. The answer is: there is no answer.

Indeed, you clearly expected too much. Claiming that the 15 minute would be gone was obviously impossible to achieve.
If the players decide to stop adventuring after 15 minutes, they will. I cannot think of any way to prevent this except to remove the players' ability to make any decisions.

 

[Bagpuss]

My question is: WotC claims to have abolished the 15-minute adventure day. I don't see where and how.

As far as I understand it, it is always more beneficial to take an extended rest than to plow on. There are no built-in penalties to taking extended rests other than time consumption - which is exactly the same as in 3rd Edition! How is that a solution?

The difference I think you are missing is that an extended rest only gives you back your daily powers. In 3rd Ed, if you went nova in the first encounter or two, spell casters lost every thing, they were useless after that, hence they needed an extended rest just to be useful.

In 4th Ed you go nova, you lose only your daily powers, you still have plenty of punch with your encounter powers. Not only that if you push on you get an action point, and more use of items. If you look at most daily powers they let you do roughly twice your normal damage (maybe a little more) and some effect. An Action point lets you do twice your normal damage in one round as well. Even if you go nova you aren't going to use all your healing surges it's virtually impossible to.

So after going Nova in 4th Ed, you still have access to healing, the vast majority most of your powers, and if you push on for just one more encounter you get back that action point you spent. A party is still at a minimum of 80% effectiveness after a short rest, assuming they have healing surges left.

You go nova in 3rd Ed, you have no access to healing, you have no spells and if you push on you are going to die. A party after going nova with their spells and items is less than 20% effective, until they have a long rest.

Sure you might be slightly better if you extended rested after every encounter in 4th Ed, but then you need to wait round for 24 hours, what's the point when you are at least 80% effectiveness, after every encounter?

 

[ValhallaGH]

In several places, you set me up as a straw man. Please discontinue this practice.

Can't help it. You're asking us to explain why racism doesn't work, starting with the premise that races are fundamental differences. Your position is nothing but straw men.

So, it's sad that you are taking offense at our responses, but next time you shouldn't set up such a trollish thread.

 

[DracoSuave]

Nothing stops the 15 minute day. Nothing ever will in the ruleset. Good DMing will. 4th edition includes incentives to keep going and overcome the 'we pissed away our resources' fear that players have, tho, to make the good DMing easier.