Reasoning behind Extended Rests?

[CapnZapp]

You can be stabilized, unless you take damage again, you won't die. You can then get back to 1HP after a short rest.

Also, this ignores a number of healing powers that do not require the character in question to spend a healing surge ... magic items, Paladin, a number of spells etc.

Thanks for clearing this up.

However, how is it a problem that there are powers that doesn't require healing surges?

You may have no immediate options, most of the solutions are something that you would have had to do earlier, for example better use of surges, had the group ready to supply healing without surge use, taking a feat like durable to avoid running out of surges so quickly, getting the right magic item.

Exactly right. It's immensely frustrating to not be able to act on a problem when it happens. This kind of mandatory planning ahead seems very alien to D&D's philosophy somehow. Or in simpler terms: it isn't fun.

Of course you should be able to heal a wounded comrade. Regardless of the resource allocation skills of the player...

However, most "alternatives" would likely involve magic items and spell choices anyway, so the options that exist are already there. If you didn't have the alternative available at the time, you'd likely have to either perform a ritual to make the magic item, or go and buy it ... which is perhaps about as time consuming as just taking a rest.

Well, bringing an extra pair of healing potions is hardly a problem...

Mentioning rituals though ... there is a ritual (I forget where, I know it's not in the PHB) that allows you to trade daily powers for healing surges. Rituals in that fashion (a way to spend some money and time performing a ritual to transfer or transform resources).

Thanks for mentioning this. Anyone know the name of this ritual?

This is exactly the kind of rule I've been looking for. (I hope)

 

[CapnZapp]

No offense, but why should the game be redesigned because someone might not keep track of one very important number? If you're using Character Sheets, there's a spot right on there for your healing surges. Each time you use one, you deduct one from the total so that you always know how many you have. It's the PC's responsibility to keep track of this information. If they don't, then it's no different than playing in a previous edition and realizing "Hey guys, I totally wasn't even paying attention to my hitpoints, which is why I only just now realized that the last attack should have killed me. Whoops!"

What's next? Should we get rid of death saves because someone might not track how many they missed until they figure out that they missed all 3 and they're now dead? Or get rid of ability scores since someone might forget their Strength mod to their attacks because they weren't paying attention? It's a PC's responsibility to get themselves some form of a character sheet (and there's a pretty good one right in the back of the PHB. $0.10 at Kinko's will get you a copy...) and use it to track all of the relevant numbers in the game. It's their job to do that, and always has been.

Ridicule me all you want, but hit points is what you've always have had to monitor. Being told "we can't heal you because you've run out of surges" feels very artificial to me, that's all. Please take your threadcrapping elsewhere.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

It's damn hard to get at zero surge while the rest of the party is fresh and able to push on. Normally, if one PC is at 0 surge, the rest of the team is pretty banged up too and many daily powers have been expanded.

If it's not the case, then it's likely that one PC is now almost dead BECAUSE the other PCs where always holding back, hoarding dailies and taking no risks. A single mistake can't explain it, even at level 1. You need a recurrent pattern of decisions that lead to one PC assuming too much risks with not enough support.

I know it's not a PC thing to say, but that party (not just the 0 surge PC, usually) is doing something 'wrong' and having a team member caught with no surge is the consequence. Ideally, you learn from it and try to avoid repeating that situation. Or, apparently, you can decide to change the rules of the game instead...

---

D&D has always been fairly tactical but 4e is much more so. Instead of trying to optimize a PC, 4e is about optimizing the party's interactions. One PC getting drained to 0 surge before the rest of the team has taken a dent in theirs and while they still have plenty of dailies is basically a critical failure in teamwok mechanics.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Ridicule me all you want, but hit points is what you've always have had to monitor. Being told "we can't heal you because you've run out of surges" feels very artificial to me, that's all. Please take your threadcrapping elsewhere.

Healing surges are hitpoints, they're no different. My second level Fighter has 42 hitpoints and 12 surges with a surge value of 13 (he's a Dragonborn with 16 CON). This means he effectively has a maximum of 198 hitpoints. He can't access all of those at one time, but that's essentially his maximum hitpoints. Keeping track of your surges is all a part of that.

And regardless of whether or not you think I'm making fun of you, you're still making a very bad point. The system should not be redesigned because some players/parties cannot figure out how to play effectively. Where's the reward for players/parties that make effective use of their resources? All your proposing is to reward bad play. "If you blow through all your surges, that's okay, we'll give you more!" How is this productive? It will not make the individual players any better, and if anything, it could make them worse.

Plus, how many surges are you planning on giving out? You have to make it through two encounters to get to a milestone. So if you have a Fighter that's blown through 10+ surges in that time, you think 2 surges will get him to the next two encounters? Of course not! He's blowing through 5+ per encounter apparently, so 2 isn't going to cut it. Neither will 4 or 5. All you'll do is just extend their day by one encounter. If you're blowing through that many surges, then the only thing that would work is to get all of them back per milestone.

And remember, whatever surges you grant go to everyone. So when the Fighter has blown through 8 surges due to not tracking them and not managing resources well, other players will have full surge values. What happens when they hit a milestone? Will they gain extra surges in excess of their maximum value? If not, why are you punishing them? Why should they be barred from getting extra surges just because they didn't get hit?

This is why this system won't work. All it does is reward bad play on the part of the player/party and punish good play by not allowing them access to the same resources. Even if you do give them surges in excess of their maximum value, guess what? They're still at full surges while that other character getting hit a lot is at less than maximum. The player that's managing resources poorly is still going to be a drag on the party as whole, you've just dragged the process out for an extra encounter or two.

 

[WalterKovacs]

Thanks for clearing this up.

However, how is it a problem that there are powers that doesn't require healing surges?

It's a solution to the problem of running out of surges, just like potions that could be used out of combat would be.

Exactly right. It's immensely frustrating to not be able to act on a problem when it happens. This kind of mandatory planning ahead seems very alien to D&D's philosophy somehow. Or in simpler terms: it isn't fun.

However, bringing healing potions or in earlier games wands and scrolls, were all about the same advanced planning.

Of course you should be able to heal a wounded comrade. Regardless of the resource allocation skills of the player...

True. However, HP is only really relevant if you go into combat. You can revive a wounded comrade even when tapped out, but you may not be able to make them combat ready.

In general though, the idea that the group is in good shape but an ally is severely hurt ... is something that is common in fantasy stories. Most of the time they stopped to rest because of Frodo, the rest were probaby fine.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sorry Walther, but I don't buy that.

Having to glance at your buddies to check you're not spending too many or too few healing surges doesn't seem like fun to me.

Currently, there is this completely inflexible rule that forces you to cut short your adventuring day. Not granting any kind of flexibility to me seems unreasonable and bad.

Why is the rule this unrelenting? I can't say I've seen a single good reply. What is the value of forcing players to monitor surges to the point of not concentrating on the adventure fully?

If instead the player low on resources is penalized, but not so harshly he will feel forced to persuade the rest of the party to rest, the adventure can go on, and the 15-minute day will finally have been fixed.

The penalty for being out of whack with your group shouldn't be put on the group. It should be put on the individual.

Having to start over afresh the next day is a group penalty. Getting, say, -2 to attacks is an individual penalty. And it allows the fellow PC who's better at managing his resources to retain his relative advantage.

I'm sensing there is a monumental disconnect here. We need to discuss our underlying expectations and notions if we're going to understand each other.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Sorry Walther, but I don't buy that.

Having to glance at your buddies to check you're not spending too many or too few healing surges doesn't seem like fun to me.

Currently, there is this completely inflexible rule that forces you to cut short your adventuring day. Not granting any kind of flexibility to me seems unreasonable and bad.

Why is the rule this unrelenting? I can't say I've seen a single good reply. What is the value of forcing players to monitor surges to the point of not concentrating on the adventure fully?

If instead the player low on resources is penalized, but not so harshly he will feel forced to persuade the rest of the party to rest, the adventure can go on, and the 15-minute day will finally have been fixed.

The penalty for being out of whack with your group shouldn't be put on the group. It should be put on the individual.

Having to start over afresh the next day is a group penalty. Getting, say, -2 to attacks is an individual penalty. And it allows the fellow PC who's better at managing his resources to retain his relative advantage.

I'm sensing there is a monumental disconnect here. We need to discuss our underlying expectations and notions if we're going to understand each other.

Then why not get rid of hitpoints? Healing Surges and hitpoints are essentially about the same thing. They're a measure of your character's health and ability to carry on. So let's just get rid of them altogether, because it's not fair to the party if one guy is low on hitpoints (or even negative!) when the rest of the party is fine...right?

Your problem is that you're thinking of it like a resource, like it's lamp oil or something. It's not. Your healing surges are additional hitpoints, and when you run out you'll be dying. A lot. Saying that the rest of the party shouldn't be penalized when one member runs out of surges is foolish. If only one person is running out of surges in encounters, then obviously the party is not helping that person out. If everyone is running low on surges, then it's time to rest anyway.

 

[CapnZapp]

Then why not get rid of hitpoints? Healing Surges and hitpoints are essentially about the same thing. They're a measure of your character's health and ability to carry on. So let's just get rid of them altogether, because it's not fair to the party if one guy is low on hitpoints (or even negative!) when the rest of the party is fine...right?

I'm asking nicely one more time: could you stop with the condescending and unhelpful suggestions?

Saying that the rest of the party shouldn't be penalized when one member runs out of surges is foolish.

Look. If you find value in having to rest as soon as a single member is out of surges, fine.

But calling me foolish brings me no closer to understanding your point. You're not helping, so either change your tack or stay out of the thread. Thank you.

Surges are not hit points. Hit points can be healed. Surges can't.

In fact, a lack of surges prevent healing.

Being prevented from healing up is what feels so very artificial. This is the first rpg I know of where healing is outright prevented instead of just being made slow, dangerous or expensive.

That this restriction additionally brings back the 15-minute adventuring day (though slightly prolonged) I thought was abolished by all the new design around powers doesn't help at all.

 

[DracoSuave]

Saying that surges are a mechanic that -prevent- healing, when, in fact, the opposite is true, that surges are a mechanic designed to -facilitate- healing -is- however not seeing the forest for the trees. It IS a resource, and you DO run out of it eventually, and you need to manage it the same way you manage power use, ammunition, and any consumable aspect of your character sheet.

The thing with surges is that it is HARD to use them all up in one encounter unless you are honestly -trying- to piss away this resource. You have to give a very honest effort to do so, building the party to do so from character creation. You literally have to create a character with the concept of 'piss away my healing surges.'

Most encounters, nay, all encounters, are designed with the intent that you can't do this, and aim to use a lot less healing surges. If you have a single party member who is ending an encounter with no healing surges and the party's still fresh, you are seriously doing -something- wrong. The party isn't stepping up to their obligation and exercising teamwork. This isn't a problem with the system, just like it isn't a design flaw of my laptop computer if it breaks when I take a hammer to it.

 

[CapnZapp]

Saying that surges are a mechanic that -prevent- healing, when, in fact, the opposite is true, that surges are a mechanic designed to -facilitate- healing -is- however not seeing the forest for the trees. It IS a resource, and you DO run out of it eventually, and you need to manage it the same way you manage power use, ammunition, and any consumable aspect of your character sheet.

The thing with surges is that it is HARD to use them all up in one encounter unless you are honestly -trying- to piss away this resource. You have to give a very honest effort to do so, building the party to do so from character creation. You literally have to create a character with the concept of 'piss away my healing surges.'

Most encounters, nay, all encounters, are designed with the intent that you can't do this, and aim to use a lot less healing surges. If you have a single party member who is ending an encounter with no healing surges and the party's still fresh, you are seriously doing -something- wrong. The party isn't stepping up to their obligation and exercising teamwork. This isn't a problem with the system, just like it isn't a design flaw of my laptop computer if it breaks when I take a hammer to it.

So you have never ended a fight with the fighter completely out of surges while the wizard still has all his left?

Comparing surges to powers is disingenuous. The whole of 4E is designed around the goal of allowing the party to press on even when your powers are depleted, partly through ever-replenishing ones (encounter powers), partly through not having any really devastating ones (even the most powerful Daily has nothing on a level 9 spell).

All other consumables; ammo, healing potions, and the like are such that you can have any amount, limited only by how much cash you've been able to collect.

Not so with surges. Once you have zero surges, you're all but impossible to heal without taking an extended rest. This makes it exceedingly risky to continue on.

Sure, surges "facilitate" healing. Just like a healing potion, say.

Okay, so when you run out of healing potions your character magically becomes immune to Cure Light Wounds and Heal Skill checks too... right?

Of course not.

Say what you will about surges, but they're definitely a mechanic designed to prevent you from healing.