Rebalancing the Summon Monster spells

[Zerovoid]

Summoning is at its most powerful when the summoner is invisible or otherwise heavily protected, but only as long as he doesn't attack.

An invisible summoner in the back of the party, summoning critters into positions to allow flanking and the like can be very effective.

I have no doubt that they spent a good deal of time balancing those spells. I suspect that what seems to be underpowered casting is simply insufficiently innovative thinking.

I think thats the main problem with these spells. They are effective in a way that isn't fun. They're good to help the rogue flank, and to fill up the battle field with bodies, but they can't really kill anything, so they're not fun for a wizard, especially since clerics get all the spells at the same level.

If anything, I would increase the power of the arcane summoning spells. Maybe let wizards summon half-celestial creatures instead of celestial creatures.

 

[nameless]

For an expanded list of summons, here's my advice:

1. Apply Celestial, Fiendish, Axiomatic, Anarchic, or any elemental template equally to the creatures that have a template.
2. Almost any creature of the same CR will wit in a specific summon level. Here's the chart that the PHB is basically following, with a few exceptions.
1: Less than 1 CR
2: 1 CR
3: 2 CR
4: 3 CR
5: good 3 to average 5 CR
6: good 5 to average 7 CR
7: good 7 to average 9 CR
8: good 9 to average 11 CR
9: good 11 CR to low 14 CR

When the creature gets abilities that are useful outside of combat, espceially travel, divination, and healing spells, it needs a higher summon spell to grab it.

I would also expand the eligible creatures to templated vermin, beasts, magical beasts, templated animals, outsiders, and elementals. That should give some good variety without overpowering the spells.

-nameless

 

[ashockney]

My experience with Summon Monster has been that the lower level spells are less "tough" but very versatile (powerful at lower levels). The higher level summon monster spells are much "tougher" montsters straight up.

So, for example: in low level summon monster spells you can get creatures who can "open doors" fly through windows, heal, increase your movement, alter your form of movement (flight, swim), and prove "immune" to certain traps or combats thanks to invulnerabilities. These abilities, which are generally unavailable at lower levels to casters, and even then can't be done as efficiently (you decide what to summon at the time of casting). At higher levels, the monsters summoned are sheer firepowers. I've trembled before the might of a summonners Huge Elementals, Planetars, and hordes of Dire Lions or Elephants.

How specifically would you suggest altering the power level to summoned monsters?

I wouldn't suggest making higher level creatures any tougher. I think there is room for "tougher" simpler creatures in the lower levels, but they should certainly provide less resistances/immunities. Be very careful in this process as well, or you may make the fighter/barbarian types rather jealous.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

I think thats the main problem with these spells. They are effective in a way that isn't fun. They're good to help the rogue flank, and to fill up the battle field with bodies, but they can't really kill anything, so they're not fun for a wizard, especially since clerics get all the spells at the same level.

It's hard to even know what to say about this. So, you're saying that a spell that doesn't kill anything isn't fun?

This does seem to be the root of most people's dissatisfaction with the summon monster spells. If you don't place any value on giving flanking support to your party, drawing attacks away from your party members, plugging holes in your party's formation, and such, then ... well, go ahead and cast a fireball. But don't tell me that my fun when I cast summon monster is fake fun.

 

[Velenne]

I'm playing an 8th level human sorceror Summoner right now. Initially, I was also very unhappy with the SM spells so I posted a a few ideas and eventually we decided to playtest these rules:

1.) For a given SM spell, using the next highest list of creatures to determine which monsters you can summon. Therefore, casting a Summon Monster II would utilize the SM III list from the PH.

2.)One may also choose to freely designate the creature's template from either celestial, fiendish, axiomatic, anarchic, or the elemental templates from MotP.

Thus far, these changes have greatly increased the usefulness of my sorceror. He has Extend Spell which he capitalizes on only if given time to prepare (because running a spell's casting time into the next round is overly cumbersome in the midst of combat). He also utilizes his extra partial action from Haste to finish off his casting time in the same round, which has exponentially increased his usefulness as it doesn't make him as vulnerable. He'll typically Haste in the first round, turn Invisible with his extra partial, and move somewhere else, then begin summoning in the 2nd round.

Still, while having a variety of templates to add to creatures is fun (especially during descriptions of spell effects!), I'd still like to have more actual creatures to choose from. So if you have the link to the expanded summon monster list, please post it!!!!

 

[nameless]

Rictus, I think you took that statement wrong. If you have fun playing a summoner, more power to you. He was saying that the problem in general with summoners is that, despite being effective, it's not particularly satisfying (sentiment I agree with). Like he said, the summoned monster isn't usually doing much damage, and at the lower levels, it's likely that the monster won't even stick around long enough to divert significant attacks.

I also tend to believe that most intelligent opponents will realize that the PCs are more of a threat than the Giant Eagle they summoned... and simply ignore it or kill it with collateral damage. But like I said, I haven't seen much play of summoners. I could be completely wrong.

-nameless

 

[bmcdaniel]

Summoning Spells

I tried to induce more use of the summoning spells by expanding the number of summonable critters and increasing the duration to concentration + 1 rd/level. Sadly nobody still takes the spells.

For those interested, I've attached my list of summonable critters. I allow any of the following templates to be imposed on the relevant critter: celestial, fiendish, anarchic, axiomatic, any elemental template, and shadow.

BM

[COLOR=burlywood]
CR	Creature	Source
Summoning I		
0.5	Baboon, template	MM 193
0.5	Badger, template	MM 193
0.1	Bat, template	MM 193
0.3	Dire rat, template	MM 57
0.3	Dog, template	MM 195
0.3	Hawk, template	MM 197
0.2	Monkey, template	MM 198
0.25	Owl, template	MM 199
0.25	Raven, template	MM 201
0.3	Spitting Crawler Lizard (Lizard)	FRCS 308
0.25	Weasel, template	MM 203

Summoning II		
0.5	Animated Object (Tiny), template	MM 17
0.5	Bee, Giant (Vermin), template	MM 206
1	Dog (Riding), template	MM 196
0.5	Eagle, template	MM 196
0.5	Formorian worker	MM 90
1	Horse (Heavy), template	MM 197
1	Horse (Light), template	MM 197
1	Lemure (Devil)	MM 48
1	Octopus, template	MM 199
0.25	Scorpion (Tiny Vermin), template	MM 209
1	Shark (medium-sized), template	MM 200
0.25	Spider (Tiny Vermin), template	MM 209
1	Squid, template	MM 200
0.25	Viper (Tiny Snake), template	MM 200
1	Warrior (1st level), Celestial	
1	Warrior (1st level), Fiendish	
1	Warrior (1st level), Shadow	
1	Wolf, template	MM 204

Summoning III		
1	Animated Object (Small), template	MM 17
2	Azer	MM 22
2	Bison, template	MM 194
2	Black Bear, template	MM 193
2	Boar, template	MM 194
2	Cheetah	MM 195
2	Constrictor (Snake), template	MM 200
2	Crocodile, template	MM 195
2	Dire Badger, template	MM 56
2	Dire Bat, template	MM 57
2	Dire Weasel, template	MM 56
2	Dretch (Demon)	MM 41
1	Elemental (Small)	MM 81
2	Gorilla aka Ape, template	MM 193
2	Leopard, template	MM 197
2	Lizard (Giant), template	MM 198
1	Paraelemental (Small)	MP 181
2	Salamandar (Small)	MM 159
0.5	Scorpion (Small Vermin), template	MM 209
2	Shark (Large), template	MM 200
0.5	Spider (Small Vermin), template	MM 210
2	Thoqqua	MM 175
4	Triton	MM 178
0.5	Viper (Small Snake), template	MM 200
2	Wolverine, template	MM 204

Summoning IV		
3	Animated Object (Large), template	MM 17
3	Arrowhawk (Small)	MM 19
3	Dire Ape, template	MM 57
3	Dire Wolf, template	MM 204
3	Dusk Beast (Ephemera)	MP 170
3	Giant Eagle	MM 102
3	Giant Owl	MM 103
3	Hell hound	MM 118
2	Hippogriff, template	MM 118
3	Howler	MM 121
2	Imp (Devil)	MM 48
2	Lantern Archon (Celestial)	MM 29
3	Lion, template	MM 198
3	Pack Lizard (Lizard), template	FRCS 308
3	Magmin	MM 130
1	Scorpion (Medium-Size Vermin), template	MM 209
1	Spider (Medium-Size Vermin), template	MM 210
3	Tojanida (Small)	MM 177
1	Two-Headed Adder (Snake), template	FRCS 309
2	Vargouille	MM 182
1	Viper (Medium-size Snake), template	MM 200
3	Warrior (3rd level), Celestial	
3	Warrior (3rd level), Fiendish	
3	Xorn (Small)	MM 187

Summoning V		
5	Achaierai	MM 15
6	Animated Object (Huge), template	MM 17
5	Arrowhawk (Medium-size)	MM 19
7	Baleen Whale (Whale), template	MM 204
5	Brown Bear, template	MM 193
6	Constrictor (Giant Snake), template	MM 200
5	Crocodile (Giant), template	MM 195
3	Crysmal	PsH 146
5	Dire Boar, template	MM 194
6	Dire Lion, template	MM 57
5	Dire Wolverine, template	MM 57
3	Elemental (Medium-size)	MM 81
3	Formorian Warrior	MM 90
6	Girallon, template	MM 104
5	Gray Ooze (Ooze), Anarchic	MM 145
5	Griffon, template	MM 113
4	Hound Archon (Celestial)	MM 29
6	Manticore, Fiendish	MM 130
3	Mephit (any)	MM 132
5	Minotaur, Fiendish	MM 137
6	Orca (Whale), template	MM 203
5	Owlbear, Fiendish	MM 148
3	Paraelemental (Medium-size)	MP 181
3	Pegasus, Celestial	MM 148
3	Quasit	MM 153
5	Rhinocerous, template	MM 200
5	Salamandar (Medium-size)	MM 159
2	Scorpion (Large Vermin), template	MM 209
5	Sea Lion, template	MM 160
5	Shadow Mastiff	MM 162
2	Shark (Large), template	MM 200
2	Spider (Large Vermin), template	MM 210
4	Spinagon (Devil)	MP 167
5	Tiger, template	MM 203
5	Tojanida (Medium-size)	MM 177
2	Viper (Large Snake), template	MM 200
3	Wasp (Giant Vermin), template	MM 207
2	Winged Viper (Snake), template	FRCS 309
4	Xag-Ya (Energon) [note: not controllable]	MP 169
5	Xeg-Yi (Energon) [note: not controllable]	MP 169
3	Yeth Hound	MM 188

Summoning VI		
7	Armanite (Demon)	MP 164
7	Barbazu (Devil)	MM 48
6	Belker	MM 26
7	Bezekira, aka HellCat (Devil)	MM 48
8	Cachalot Whale (Whale), template	MM 204
6	Canoloth (Yugoloth)	MP 187
7	Chaos Beast	MM 34
8	Dire Bear, template	MM 58
5	Elemental (Large)	MM 81
7	Erinyes (Devil)	MM 48
4	Janni (Genie)	MM 94
6	Kyton	MM 48
6	Ochre Jelly (Ooze), Anarchic	MM 145
5	Paraelemental (Large)	MP 181
5	Rast	MM 154
3	Scorpion (Huge Vermin), template	MM 209
7	Slaad (Red)	MM 166
3	Spider (Huge Vermin), template	MM 210
3	Unicorn, Celestial	MM 181
6	Uridezu (Demon)	MP 164
3	Viper (Huge Snake), template	MM 200
6	Xorn (Medium-size)	MM 187

Summoning VII		
8	Animated Object (Gargantuan), template	MM 17
8	Arrowhawk (Large)	MM 197
9	Avoral Guardian (Celestial)	MM 29
9	Bebilith (Demon)	MM 41
8	Black Pudding (Ooze), Anarchic	MM 145
8	Bulette, template	MM 28
10	Dire Tiger, template	MM 58
5	Djinni (Genie)	MM 94
9	Ecalypse (Ephemera)	MP 170
7	Elemental (Huge)	MM 81
10	Elephant, template	MM 197
8	Hamatula (Devil)	MM 49
7	Invisible Stalker	MM 123
8	Megaraptor (Dinosaur), template	MM 55
7	Mezzoloth (Yugoloth)	MP 187
9	Narzugon	MP 167
10	Octopus (Giant), template	MM 199
6	Osyluth (Devil)	MM 48
7	Paraelemental (Huge)	MP 181
5	Ravid	MM 154
8	Slaad (Blue)	MM 166
9	Tojanida (Large)	MM 177
9	Treant, Celestial	MM 178
9	Treant, Celestial	MM 178
9	Treant, Fiendish	MM 178
9	Triceratops (Dinosaur), template	MM 55
8	Xorn (Large)	MM 187

Summoning VIII		
11	Androsphinx (Sphinx), Celestial	MM 170
4	Barghest (Medium-size)	MM 22
10	Cornugon (Devil)	MM 49
8	Dao (Genie)	MP 173
9	Elemental (Greater)	MM 81
10	Firre Eladrin (Celestial)	MP 162
7	Formorian Taskmaster	MM 90
7	Lillend	MM 128
9	Paraelemental (Greater)	MP 181
9	Salamandar (Large)	MM 159
11	Squid (Giant), template	MM 200
9	Succubus (Demon)	MM 41
10	Tyrannosaurus (Dinosaur), template	MM 55
9	Zelekhut (Inevitable)	MP 173

Summoning IX		
12	Animated Object (Colossal), template	MM 17
14	Astral Deva (Celestial)	MM 30
5	Barghest (Large)	MM 22
14	Cerebrilith (Demon)	PsH 145
10	Couatl	MM 38
8	Efreeti (Genie)	MM 95
11	Elemental (Elder)	MM 81
13	Gelugon (Devil)	MM 49
13	Ghaele Eladrin (Celestial)	MM 30
13	Goristro (Demon)	MP 164
12	Kolyarut	MP 177
8	Lammasu	MM 127
12	Leonal Guardinal (Celestial)	MP 162
9	Marid (Genie)	MP 173
9	Night Hag	MM 140
5	Nightmare	MM 140
13	Nycaloth (Yugoloth)	MP 187
11	Paraelemental (Elder)	MP 181
9	Rakshasa	MM 153
11	Roc, template	MM 156
11	Scorpion (Gargantuan Vermin), template	MM 209
11	Spider (Gargantuan Vermin), template	MM 210
13	Vrock (Demon)	MM 41
6	Xill	MM 187



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[bitbug]

Low level monsters don't have abilities

So, for example: in low level summon monster spells you can get creatures who can "open doors" fly through windows, heal, increase your movement, alter your form of movement (flight, swim), and prove "immune" to certain traps or combats thanks to invulnerabilities.

What monsters are you talking about? As far as I can tell, the standard monster list has no monsters that can heal, alter you in any way, or have more than resistance 5 to one thing (if that) at low levels. Even at high levels, the only monster that heals is a deva or planetar (I forget which). You don't get spell-like abilities of significance until SM V-VI, none of which, generally speaking, offer divination, healing, or attack spells.

 

[Velenne]

WOW! That's a great list, bmcdaniel!! Thanks for taking the time to put that together. I'll have to see what my DM thinks of it.

 

[Ancalagon]

Can't the lantern archon heal?

Anyway, make the casting time one action and not one round. You could then sumon twice a round with haste.

Ancalagon