Rebalancing the Summon Monster spells

I want to do a case study of one summon monster spell to provide an overall argument that they are already balanced as is.

Look at Summon Monster IV with the Lantern Archon.

Regardless of the actual CR of this creature think about its abilities with relation to a 7th level cleric. When the creature is summoned an instant magic circle against evil goes up. Therefore, that is one less spell that the cleric has to pray for and cast during a battle. However, on top of that, the Archon has the Menace ability (granted it is only DC 11) which will most likely only effect creatures with pretty much no will save bonus and even then only 50% of the time. Along with both of these abilities, the archon can communicate with anything intelligent as well as actually fight. Two touch attacks each dealing 1d6 dmg per round is nothing to snuff at.

Finally, the archon can cast aid. Again, this takes the place of either bless or aid that the cleric would cast. The archon can float around casting aid on any needy allies or make 2 touch attacks or fly at a speed of 60' with perfect agility or teleport to continually flank any relevant creature that perhaps moves after the initial summoning.

So for a 4th level spell you get a third level spell cast automatically, not to mention the ability to cast at least 7 2nd level spells, aid, (that are actually useful), as well as the option of attacking with ranged touch attacks.

Also with DR 20/+1 and the intelligence to stay away from big bad guys, there is a very good chance this archon will be surviving most normal attacks.

If anything, just the ability to have a 3rd level spell cast and also get in two touch attacks each dealing 1d6 dmg in one round is very useful.

I must admit that the lower level summon spells are less useful. However, setting up flanks can truly turn the tide of a battle. I really have to say that I think they are balance as is.
 

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Re: Low level monsters don't have abilities

bitbug said:

What monsters are you talking about? As far as I can tell, the standard monster list has no monsters that can heal, alter you in any way, or have more than resistance 5 to one thing (if that) at low levels. Even at high levels, the only monster that heals is a deva or planetar (I forget which). You don't get spell-like abilities of significance until SM V-VI, none of which, generally speaking, offer divination, healing, or attack spells.

Formian workers can heal if you get 8 of them together.

The unicorn (as mentioned earlier) can heal.

Useful abilities (including spell-like) available at SM IV and below include:

Summon Monster II
Telepathy: Lemure
Trip: Wolf
Poison: Viper
Ink Cloud: Squid
Scent: Wolf

Summon Monster III
Heat: Azer
Drench: Water Elemental
Scare: Dretch
Whirlwind: Air Elemental
Telekinesis: Dretch
Tremorsense: Thoqqua
Blood Drain: Weasel
Stinking Cloud: Dretch
Burn: Fire Elemental
Blindsight: Bat
Darkness: Dretch

Summon Monster IV
Aura of Menace: Lantern Archon
Magic Circle Against Evil: Lantern Archon
Aid: Lantern Archon
Detect Evil: Lantern Archon
Continual Flame: Lantern Archon
Burrow: Xorn
Fiery Aura: Magmin
Melt Weapons: Magmin
See in Darkness: Imp
Detect Good: Imp
Detect Magic: Imp
Suggestion: Imp
Commune: Imp
Cone of Fire: Hell Hound
Shriek: Varguille


Dretch is particularly useful at SM III and Lantern Archon & Imp at SM IV (including commune from the Imp!)

- mind you, these are pretty feeble compared with what can be called using "Planar Ally", "Planar Binding" or their related spells. Cleric wins out big-time here, but since they summon things based on HD... An 11th level cleric can cast a 6th level Planar Ally spell and call a Planetar who can cast spells as a 17th level cleric amongst all its other abilities - a somewhat better deal than a Kyton, Barbazu or Erinyes with SM VI and it can last for days rather than rounds...

(The plus side is that summoned monsters can't actually be killed, while the aforementioned spells actually bring the creatures, so they could be killed - and the DM can make the diety send several lesser creatures, although it is potentially robbing the players of the maximum utility of the spell).

Cheers
 

Another option to consider would be leaving summoning as is, but add some new spells (possibly player-researched) that can be used to augment your summoned creatures. Maybe do things like:

Reset duration
Maximize hit points
Heal
Increase stats
Bonuses to hit and damage or crit range/multiplier
Store Spell (or channle touch spell)
etc.

Since these would only work on summoned critters, they would be more powerful than their "normal" version. For example, instead of a "Cat's Grace", you could make a 2nd level "Minion's Grace" spell that added (d4+1)*2 DEX, or maybe a 4th level "Horde's Grace" that did the same to all of your summoned creatures within 30ft. Or heck, leave the spell as is but bump it down to 1st level for the "minion-only" version (not that they would ever get to use the full duration).


This would keep a summoner busy taking care of his minions while they did the dirty work for him. It would also allow for "serious" summoners while leaving the system as if for the casual types (who don't bother with all the augmentation spells). Anyway, I would recommend adding to the system rather than changing it if you can.
 

Swimming against the stream...

Seems most people on this thread are in favour of tweaking the Summon Monster spells. Personally I think it should be left as it is.

I admit I've never used it as a player, but I have used it several times to devastating effect as a GM. It's great for 'pinning' opponents (especially spellcasters) while you whack 'em with missile fire or other spells. In fact, one time I found myself wishing the summoned creatures would wink out earlier - the PCs were getting so splatted it was embarassing.

Maybe everybody's problem with it is that it is really a teamwork spell as opposed to an ego stroker :rolleyes:
 

I think the only problem is the casting time. These aren't pure combat spells so they shouldn't be as effective in doing damage as a fireball. You can get a lot of utility out of these spells despite the short duration. Problem is getting these spells off is a pain, sure you can go invisible and not attck anyone and have a reasonably chance of geting these spells off. But the virtual need to go invisible to get these spells off is a large limit that they don't seem to balance. Because of the casting time these spells should be better than virtually every spell of the same levels, but they're not, they're not necesarily weaker, but they aren't better.
 


I really don't think the summon spells need revising. Look at this smack I wrote for another thread (create a summoner smackdown) if my mere words don't convince you:

I am assuming you mean only summoning and not gate spells. So I will limit this smack down to using only summon spells. Here goes.

14th level human: Cleric of Labelas Enoreth 7, Divine Disciple 3, Sacred Exorcist 3, Contemplative 1

All abilities at least 10 with Wis=27, Chr=18

Ranks for skills: K[planes] – 7 (min.), K[religion] – 13 (min.), Diplomacy – 5 (min) + minimum of 23 additional ranks.

Feats: augment summoning, extra turning, improved initiative, scribe scroll, +4 feats (might take leadership)

Special abilities: divine emissary, divine health, chosen foe +2 – outsiders, resist possession, detect evil, dispel evil 1/week, imbue with spell ability, sacred defense +1

Spell effects: contingencied divine power, spell phylacteried recitation, spell phylacteried repeated spiritual weapon

Domains – summoning, time, knowledge, exorcism, +1 (good, elf, or chaos).

Equipment – periapt of wisdom +6 (36,000gp), scroll of mass haste x2 (4500gp), scroll of divine power (700gp), scroll of recitation (700gp)

Spells:
3rd (6+1) – haste
4th (6+1) – summon monster IV (x6)
5th (4+1) – summon monster V (x5)
6th (4+1) – summon monster VI (x4)
7th (3+1) – righteous wrath of the faithful, mass haste, summon monster VII (x2)

6+5d3+6d4+6 = 38 lantern archons

While hasted you start summoning lantern archons with all of your summon spells. You can do this from anywhere on the same plane as your opponent. The cleric can be scrying on the opponent if you like or just have a general idea of where he/she/they are. Don’t forget you have the knowledge domain so you can have figured out as much as you like about the enemy at this point. Given the fact that you are a cleric of good, most likely your opponent is going to be an evil nemesis related to the antithesis of your religion – otherwise – why would you bother?

Anyway, so you start with the lower level summons summoning 1 lantern archon at a time. If your DM wants to be picky you can be hasted from the time domain so that in those partial actions you have a second or two of time to mentally communicate (from divine emissary) with your summoned lantern archons the rudimentaries of your plan: at this point – just await further instruction and tell that to all of the other lantern archons I summon. In total you spend 17 rounds summoning archons. Because of your summoning domain all of them count as being cast by a caster twice your current level so all of their durations are at 28 rounds as opposed to 14 rounds. Therefore, you still have 11 rounds left for the first summon spell, 12 rounds for the next, etc. Basically, I will limit this smack to the 11 rounds though. You spend the next few rounds explaining the plan to them, which you can do telepathically or verbally – makes no difference:

1.Wait until I say CELESTIAL to initiate any of the following instructions.
2. This picture (previously prepared) depicts your enemies. You must kill them.
3.You will do this by all teleporting to this exact location depicted here (previously prepared with picture and maps).
4.At this location the enemy awaits you. (at this point if there is more than one enemy, the lantern archons will be divided up each to attack the several enemies with instructions to aid the lantern archon closest to them if their enemy is slain)

I figure that those instructions are fairly simple and should take no more than 2 or 3 rounds. But, even if it took 4 or 5 rounds, no big deal. Also, you could always write them down and individually instruct the archons to just read the script. Whatever, no biggie – so long as they get the directions.

Next you cast righteous wrath of the faithful (your scroll of recitation was spell phylacteried to go off when the RWotF went off, so now both take effect). With your hasted partial action you cast mass haste. Then cast mass haste twice next round each from the scroll (don’t forget you are still hasted, and if that wore off just target yourself as one of the targets from the first mass haste – you can effect up to 42 targets and you only need to effect 38 + yourself).

Then you say: CELESTIAL!!!

38 lantern archons teleport without error to the location you specified almost definitely getting surprise unless the enemy is really damn good. All 38 lantern archons get 3 touch attacks – one normal from the surprise round partial action, one from haste, and one from RWotF. That’s a total of 114 attacks at +8/1d6+6. Don’t forget these are ranged touch attacks. A surprised opponent’s touch AC can’t be that high – they don’t get dex or dodge and ignore all types of armor bonuses. If their AC isn’t 10 they are really damn good.

So, each lantern archon is at +1/+1 from the augment summoning feat (unnamed), +3/+3 from recitation (luck), +2/+2 and +1 attack from RWotF (morale), and +1 partial action from haste. The normal 2: +2/1d6 touch attacks are now 4: +8/1d6+6.

For simplicity, let’s assume AC 10. That means .95x3x38x(9.5) average damage during the surprise round, which equals 1028.85 damage divided up by 9.5 damage increments!!! But wait, those 38 lantern archons all have improved initiative. Assuming averages, that would mean that 66% of the archons will win initiative assuming the opponent has no initiative modifier. However, let’s give the opponent(s) the benefit of the doubt and say that – first off he/she/they are still alive – and that he/she/they also have improved initiative or at least a +4 to their initiative. That would mean only 50% of the lantern archons are going to win initiative. That means that the damage that these 50% will get to deal (still all before the opponent has been able to react) equals .5x.95x4x38x(9.5) which equals 685.9 damage. That’s a total of 1714 damage on average before the opponent(s) can react (and that calculation doesn’t even include criticals).

Before reveling in pride like a pig in $H[T J, I first must admit the weakness of this strategy: anything with DR X/+2 will be absolutely immune to this attack. However, like I said, you have the knowledge domain, so you would never use this tactic on something that had DR X/+2. Of course, where there is a will, there is a way. To compensate for the DR problem, Mr. Cleric could take the leadership feat and take a Human Wiz5/Incantrix8 who had the repeat or twin feats and a maxed out intelligence. The cohort certainly would not be able to cast 38 stoneskins easily but certainly could cast a bunch (at least 21 just per day) and taking into account scrolls and feats– you would only need a maximum of 17 scrolls of stoneskin at 350 gp and 28 xp each would only cost 5,950 gp and 476 xp, not that difficult at 13th level. Also, because the wizard could be hasted he could cast each of these stoneskins in only 14 rounds, and the stoneskin spell lasts for at least 70 minutes.

Thus, with one 14th level character and his cohort, Tiamut has just been taken out or some other big bad guy and or his bad guys. Finally, the revised lantern archons with the enhanced DR are some badass fighting machines. On top of what was already listed they all have magic circles up (against evil), +3 luck bonus to saves, +2d8 temporary HPs, +3 luck bonus to skill checks, +2 moral bonus to saves, and then their normal immunities as well as aura of menace: with 38 saves for the total number of creatures, unless the opponent’s will save is +10 or better, he/she/they are bound to fail at least one of the 38 rolls and will consequently be at –2 to attack, damage, AC, etc. for a day.

Last but not least, let’s say somehow this plan fails. I really don’t see how it could unless the enemy has made their lair teleport proof and with all of your research you somehow misinterpreted that to mean that there was no teleport protection, but let’s just say the plan fails – the cleric just tries again tomorrow after he figures out what the problem was. (Might take a couple of days as he’ll have to scribe a few more scrolls and if the stoneskin scrolls were used it will take a little over two weeks.) Point is, you were never yourself at harm, whatsoever (or your cohort J).

BTW – I hope this convinces anyone that believes that the summon spells are underpowered that he/she is horribly mistaken.
 

Myu experience is that the summoning spells are OK, not really in need of tweaking too much, although an expanded list which offers more creatures but not more powerful creatures seems not bad.

A summoner who just looks at the combat power will miss a lot of the spell potentcy at mid levels. A formian worker gang can do a lot for you.

By the V and VI is not the IV, you have creatures who can do damage reliably and do a significant amount of it. The duration of the spell now is long enough and the creature tough enough that he can stay around. Dire celestial bear anyone?

At lower level they are mostly distractions and need to be used intelligently, which also makes whether or not you can talk to it important.

If I was going to improve the spells at all, i would add free verbal communication between caster and summoner and not require some outside means to communicate.

That would probably make for a good feat, as matter of fact.

Conjure Speak
General feat
Req: Ability to summon sentient creatures by spell

Any creatures summoned by the caster can, if they are intelligent, understand his commands and orders clearly. He can instruct them and listen to them regardless of whether they in fact share a language normally.
 

One thing I can see that has been majorly overlooked on this post is:

summon monster ignores SR

Now of course you can still dispel summoned monsters just as any other spell, but this spell completely bypasses Spell Resistance. After your third magic missile has been resisted into a useless burst of light, you'd really want 4 semi-decent mosters flanking instead.

Flanking did I say? Yes summoned monsters are also great for that. Placement for drawing casters and archers AoO is useful too. It really keeps them busy while you deal with other problems.

You don't need to summon 38 lantern archons or 2 solars inorder to make summoning spells effective. Just summon them into the right positions and use them vs creatures which your other spells would be useless.

The only thing I don't like about summon is the rather short duration at lower levels. After that, it is one of the better mid level spells in my opinion. Fireball lasts what? Instantly. Summon creatures can do damage for many rounds past that and offer other uses.
 
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The most annoying thing, in my mind, about the summon monster spells is that they take 1 full round to cast, but you have to choose where they're going to appear at the time you start casting. This makes it really frustrating when trying to drop creatures into flanking positions, because frequently after a round has passed, everyone is in a different location. Sure the creature moves into position, but only rarely (if ever) the creature'll get a full attack in on its 1st round.

Also, does anyone have any good explanation why Druids get an inferior summon list?
 

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