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Rebuild 1E...

Celebrim

Legend
1E really needed a proper method for players to be creating items, even for the disposable stuff like scrolls and potions I wasn't exactly ecstatic with what it had.

No, 1E needed a core DM focused book on item creation giving suggested recipes for core items and some tables for randoming up ingredients to any other item you might want, plus some guidelines on substitution and customizing item creation recipes to your particular campaign.

It wouldn't have hurt to have brought permenancy and enchant item down to 5th level spells, so name level wizards would have access to the system.

I think that rather than multi-classing (since I've yet to see an approach to multiclassing that doesn't go awry somewhere) what is needed is NEW CLASSES. Not a fighter/mage MULTI-class but a fighter/mage CLASS.

That at least is very much in the style of 1st edition.

Which suggests that at least you agree there is a problem there that needs addressing - it's more a matter of HOW to address it.

It's more of a matter of how big of a problem it is percieved as. I don't percieve it as a very big problem at all. Maybe a rule for opting out of a class advancement once you've maxed in that class. Maybe moving the caps out 50% or so. That would be enough for me.

Part of the problem is that skills defy being reduced to a unified mechanic. The skill involved in being a successful farmer doesn't lend itself to making a skill check - you either ARE a good farmer or you AREN'T. The measure of your farming skill is a PREDICTABLE outcome, not a random one.

I think this is an even clearer problem with a skill like 'Jump' where the expected variation in how far you jump is actually pretty low. First edition basically says, "If you can jump, you can go this far." For my part, I write jump as a NWP in our new revised approach like this:

Jump: For the purposes of making jumps, you have a +3 bonus on your attributes.

Then we just have some standard rules for how far you can make a running jump, something like 1/2 your height + 1' point of strength and some modifiers for encumbrance.

Obviously, the approach I'm going for here is to obselete 'Acrobat' in its quasi-prestige class form. If you want a thief that is an acrobat, you take the appropriate NWP's over the course of your career.

For Swim I'd do something like:

Swim: Provided you have no more than light encumberance, you can trend water without making an attribute check and you may treat treading water as a light activity for the purpose of fatigue. You have a +3 bonus to your attributes for the purpose of overcoming swimming challenges.

What CAN sword making skill allow a player to do?

Obviously, make swords.

Can he be a legendary sword-maker or just a very good one?

I would say it would depend on his attributes. No version of D&D has had a really good crafting system.

Make magic swords even if he's just a fighter?

I would prefer that. It's certainly implied in 1st edition that extraordinary NPC's can do that. Presumably you could have some sort of difficult ability check that would allow you to add magical value to a weapon, eventually accumulating enough value to replace the otherwise necessary spells.

What benefit, if any, will the ability to make swords give the PC?

Much as with the item crafting feats in 3e added very little value to a PC if you could go down to wal-mart and buy whatever magic items you wanted, so item crafting NWP will add little to a PC if mundane items are easily obtained. However, craft NWP add all the following IMO:

1) They allow for non-standard campaigns (bronze age campaign where iron making skill is rare) where crafting is more valuable than normal should a DM want them.
2) They can efectively increase player starting wealth by decreasing the cost of items. You can just assume if the PC can make something, that already made items for his own use at whatever reduced cost making an item vs. buying one provides.
3) They open up rare but interesting out of combat challenges even in a standard game - shipwrecked on desert island or other survival challenge, impress merchant/craftsman with your shared passion for an art, impress primitive with your technical skill, fix the broken mcguffin, etc.
4) They open up the possibility of the player becoming a master smith, capable of performing feats of legend, fix the broken mcguffin, forge magic items in your down time, etc.

Far too many people dislike "psionics" in their D&D in any case. It HAS to be something that is NOT entwined with the rest of the game but that can be added or ignored as desired.

Agreed.

The interesting part of 1E psionics was not psionic vs. psionic combat...

It could have been though.

If a DM wants psionics then what is needed is one or more psionic CLASSES.

I disagree. The really cool thing about 1e psionics was that it was more or less completely divorsed from the class system. It was this little wierd subsystem reflecting natural talent that had fairly little to do with your level. You could be low level and a profoundly talented psionic. That had a flavor that has never been captured since, because to the extent that psionics need to be the game at all, that flavor of the 'child talent' the 'uncanny ability' is central to the mythology of the paranormal.

Their combat ability should not be SEPERATE from all other combat as it was in the original 1E system, but work seamlessly WITHIN it.

Agreed.

You don't need a terribly complex system to do that but I think you're right that it does need to be mechanically different from spells if it's not going to BE spells.

It should be noted that if this was 'fix 3e', and the topic was psionics I would say, 'Make 'em spells. If you want to play a psionic, take sorcerer and the appropriate spells." That's because one of the strengths of 3e is its flexbility and relative commitment to balance. But that approach doesn't really work for 1e IMO.

No, I DO think it's that important. If it's not the FOCUS of the effort it has to at least be the next greatest concern. It's an area where despite the work that would be required to address it the material was largely unaddressed through TWO new versions of the game. 3E made some notable changes - but only to adjust the existing spells into line with its own paradigm.

One of the things that 3e shows is how relatively well balanced the 1e spells were. Few of the 3e attempts to fix the problem really succeeded. Evocation was too strong in 1e, but they overdid the nerfing in 3e. Spells like haste, polymorph, and so forth had very important restrictions in 1e that when dropped, resulted in spells that were overly strong. Spell use was quite arguably a much bigger problem in 3e than it had been in 1e, and spellcasters at high level were more dominating in 3e than they had been in 1e.

So then you must admit that you DO see that there are problems with spells like Invisibility and Fireball even if they are not the same problems that I see.

Far more limited than you do. My central complaint about Fireball is that defensive magic is harder in D&D than it should be, and that it invalidates armies. There should be relatively common low level spells for warding and defending a location against magical attack. Some of the 3e rules for cover and evasion did alot to resolve the problem or at least gave the tools to do so.

For Invisibility, most of the problems I had with it in 1e were resolved in 3e by generalized concealment rules, the scent ability, and reduced duration of effect. The only other problem with it is that it effectively gives you infinite hide skill for a short time, but there are ways to address that problem as well.

These are but two out of about 400 in the PH. We've got 30 years of playtesting experience on the system. Changes are DUE.

The vast majority of all spells in 1e are fine. There are only a few famous ones that need some touch up, and in some cases that touch up is contextual (like the fact you can fireball something, but not easily create an immovable magical ward that reduces or blocks fire). Reducing the damage from fireball might be a good idea (maybe to 1d8/2 caster levels) to prevent it from being an uberspell and dominating certain forms of play (notably, martial focused campaigns), but really I think it is a pretty minor issue once you've put into place everything else.

Why CAN'T the problem be addressed, even if it's only seen by some?

You'll note that in my original list, I made suggestions about addressing it. I think 3e did a pretty decent job of addressing low level caster power. It's that those improvements carried over to high levels, and they did little to restrict casters at high level.
 

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evildmguy

Explorer
I haven't read all of the replies, yet, but have been fascinated by the break down of what 1E was and is. Some very nice insights into 1E.

When I read this, my take was more like this. I have somehow been put back in time to myself and the only thing that exists in 1E DND. I have my ideas and memories of 2E/3E/4E and any other gaming system but it is now 1980 and I am about to play DND. What would I do?

For me, then, this is about style and what I saw happen at the table. I was never involved in a game where we hired henchmen/hirelings and went with a small army to a dungeon. The game was about this group of heroes and their story. We were trying to emulate books and movies, such as Amber, Krull or LadyHawke. We were adventurers, trying to make name level and lots of gold and have lots of good stories about how we got there.

Therefore, what would I do?

Ability scores - I would try use a more unified table for them.

Races - I would try and make races mean something more for all levels. For me, whether one was a human fighter or dwarf fighter stopped mattering around 4th level. I would try and make it obvious what race a character was.

Classes - I would try and make them all fun to play. I heard many times, as the DM, "oh, all right, I will play the cleric this time" as if it was a penalty. Sometimes said about the fighter. The mage was definitely the advanced class as it was tough to play but most versatile and therefore seemed to be the most fun. It had more to track and more options. How gets into a long iterative thought process (and perhaps play testing) but the point is that if anyone doesn't want to play a class, it needs to be redone.

I would leave multi classing but only two classes, not three. Probably not dual classing. The XP tables need to be redone as a multi class character was never more than two levels behind, that I saw, and were more effective.

I would also increase hit points at first level but try and keep them lower overall, spread abilities out over more levels (i.e. paladin), increase damage that fighters can do at some point, get rid of multi attacks, and other things. (I am thinking of having a system of a mage getting an at will, encounter and daily powers in some way but not sure how at the moment.)

Levels - with the idea of "name level" being the end game, (by overall character level, not one class level) I would leave demi human limits in. I am thinking of 11th level, maybe has high as 14, for the ultimate final level.

Spells - I would remove any save or die affects for either more saves or damage. I would freeze spell effects instead of increasing with level. I like the idea of improving "skills" before giving the end all spell, i.e. invisibility.

Monsters - definitely have minions in some way.

That's about as far as I have gotten with the ideas. I really liked the analysis of what saves did back then but still prefer F/R/W of 3E. I like the idea of spell casters needing to roll to hit against some defense.

In the end, I would favor fun and drama over the mechanics. But again, this is all based on what what I saw in my groups and what we were trying to do with the game.

Good topic! Thanks!

edg
 

Baron Opal

First Post
Are you reaching high levels (ie. over 18) in a ~4 month period?
Heh, no. The adventure arc was four months. The campaign was about 3 years. I think they gained 1-2 levels in the arc. I know the wizard did, he used a silver libram right after he earned 17th level. And, man, did he use wish creatively.

Celebrim said:
The really cool thing about 1e psionics was that it was more or less completely divorsed from the class system. It was this little wierd subsystem reflecting natural talent that had fairly little to do with your level.
Yes, but it was difficult to integrate with the other characters as it could radically increase one character's power over the other. Also, I don't think it ever changed or could improve.

That said, I did love the system and did my best to integrate it, eventually making a psionic class.

One thing I wanted to try but never did was to run a party of adventurers with a hard mechanical schtick; a psionic fighter, a cleric with extreme stats, a magic-user with a staff of power and a gadgeteer thief.

As far as items went, I found the patron's quest good for specific items at low level and having the character's make their own at higher level. For scrolls and some potions I adapted the 100 gp / level rule for scrolls from the Blue Book.

Man in the Funny Hat said:
I think that rather than multi-classing (since I've yet to see an approach to multiclassing that doesn't go awry somewhere) what is needed is NEW CLASSES. Not a fighter/mage MULTI-class but a fighter/mage CLASS.
Is there an optimal number of classes? Is the paladin really the fighter/cleric? There was 10-12 classes in the PHB, counting the assassin and bard?
 

Treebore

First Post
Yeah, once I figured out how the Psionics system worked, especially the combat matrix, I liked it.

I think we only had a total of like 4 or 5 players roll successfully for psionics, and I do remember a player or two complaining about how much more powerful the characters were, but I also remember saying, "Well, if you don't like him being so powerful we can get rid of him and have a new character rolled up?" Response, "Um, no, I like having him around."

IE the players were jealous of the others and wanted to be as "special", but not so much as to lose the beneifts of having such a PC around.

Besides, in my games every time psionics were used I had a chart with a very significant chance of attracting psionically sensitive monsters. So after fighting such creatures a few times they very selectively used their psionics after that.

I do remember one awesome time, when a Paladin had Psionics, and nearly 300 points of power. So he confidently engaged 3 Mind Flayers in combat, sure he was uber powerful enough to kill them. He was right about one of them.

Fortunately after the psionic battle was over the remaining two mind flayers were so drained that the party easily killed them, and buried the Paladin with honors.
 

Votan

Explorer
On the surface, I would probably try to find a better saving throw system which is more dependent on the player stats. One easy non-scaling way to do saving throws, would be to have the players rolling less than or equal to an appropriate ability stat to save, with the DM doing "fudges" if required.

I actually like the lack of a relationship between stats and saves in 1E. This makes it much easier to have a random stat generation method.

In the same sense, I like how the relation between casting stat and spell power is much weaker. If your Cleric has a wisdom of 13, the spells she casts are as strong as cleric with wisdom 18. But compare that to 3E where the Cleric with wisdom 13 suffers a 3 point penalty to will saves, a 3 point penalty spell save DC, many fewer bonus spells and is limited to 2nd level spells. Under this system, a high wisdom is essential for a cleric.

In 1E, a high wisdom is really nice to have but a cleric can be quite viable at "name level" with a merely above average wisdom. Even a Magic User is able to get to 6th level spells with an Intelligence of this level.

This lighter link between attributes and power was a feature . . .
 

ggroy

First Post
I actually like the lack of a relationship between stats and saves in 1E. This makes it much easier to have a random stat generation method.

On the same line of thought, the Holmes basic D&D box set can be easily playable in the absence of any player attribute stats with a few minor adjustments. For example, the initiative by dex system (ie. highest dexterity goes first) could be replaced with a group initiative system (ie. roll d6's or a coin).
 

Remathilis

Legend
On the same line of thought, the Holmes basic D&D box set can be easily playable in the absence of any player attribute stats with a few minor adjustments. For example, the initiative by dex system (ie. highest dexterity goes first) could be replaced with a group initiative system (ie. roll d6's or a coin).

Which is its own interesting side-tangent; as D&D progressed, ability scores meant more. You could play Holmes without the six ability scores with some simple modifications, since most scores did little or nothing. (Str modifying attacks, dex modifying AC, and Con mod Hp being unique exceptions that could probably be modified somehow).

Compared to how important ability scores became in AD&D (IE primes doing more than modifying bonus XP, they actually modified spells known, bonus spells, or thief skills) and critical in 3e and 4e.
 

Votan

Explorer
On the same line of thought, the Holmes basic D&D box set can be easily playable in the absence of any player attribute stats with a few minor adjustments. For example, the initiative by dex system (ie. highest dexterity goes first) could be replaced with a group initiative system (ie. roll d6's or a coin).

Weakening the relationship between character power and ability scores is not precisely the same thing as removing this effect completely.

For example, the Cleric with a 13 wisdom does have some disadvantages relative to the Cleric with an 18 wisdom, in 1E.

However, the magnitude of these differences in 3E becomes huge; to get the same SAVE DC the wisdom 13 cleric needs to cast a spell that is 3 levels higher (requiring six levels of advancement). That is a huge tilt.

In contrast, in 1E, the difference is bonus spells; the 18 wisdom cleric has one bonus 1st, 2 bonus 2nd, 1 bonus 3rd and one bonus 4th level spell. She is, objectively, a better cleric.

But the 3rd edition cleric with a 13 wisdom is dramatically reduced in power relative to the 18 wisdom cleric. This means high ability scores become essential because they make up for so much.

In the same way, the uncapped nature of constitution bonuses to hit points means that a 3E wizard can easily (with a 14 base and a +5 6 amulet) get twice as many hit points as constitution bonus. This makes the ratio between a wizard and a fighter quite narrow (the fighter with the same con and the same magic item goes up 10.5 hit points per level, the wizard goes up 7.5).

This requires tight control of ability scores and magic items because the effects are so profound.

I think the ideal point is a balance between "no influence" and "a lot of influence". I'd even go for the dex idea (above) if the thief class did not require good initiative so much.

Now I could be wrong that the saving throw link is a problem; I get that and I am even willing to be convinced. I just see the ability to play a viable fighter with S 12, I 9 W 11 D 12 Cn 10 Ch 13 to be an advantage in any system with highly random ability scores. If we want to discuss point buy them the 3E approach is perfectly reasonable . . .
 

ggroy

First Post
Which is its own interesting side-tangent; as D&D progressed, ability scores meant more. You could play Holmes without the six ability scores with some simple modifications, since most scores did little or nothing. (Str modifying attacks, dex modifying AC, and Con mod Hp being unique exceptions that could probably be modified somehow).

Going back further in time, perhaps the player ability stats were added in as an afterthought to the original 1974 version of D&D?
 

ggroy

First Post
I think the ideal point is a balance between "no influence" and "a lot of influence". I'd even go for the dex idea (above) if the thief class did not require good initiative so much.

"No influence" makes the characters of the same class a bit on the "cookie cutter" side.

"A lot of influence" fuels the fire that encourages munchkin style powergaming.
 

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