Recovering XP, GP

[KarinsDad]

It seems to me that there should be some means of restricting how much money players earn working at no-risk jobs. In the language of the survey above, banning such jobs would be equivalent to disallowing voluntary downtime.

There is a difference between voluntary downtime and events in the world.

The events in my world do not stop because the players are crafting items. So, time is a valuable commodity, just like other resources. And, if the players are crafting a lot of items, their (reoccurring) foes will eventually find out about it and can attack them at a moment of weakness. Plus, crafting non-magical items results in the party getting a lot less wealth (and XP) than adventuring. Only crafting magical items can result in them acquiring more wealth, but that too is campaign specific.

In my campaign, the 8th level PCs have very few ways to sell magical items. However, I recently introduced a way for them to gate to a Magic Shop in the city of Union (ELH) once per week. Here, they can sell any unwanted items for 40% to 60% of worth (typically 40% due to the power and utility of the items the PCs have available for sale). This is one of the few ways they have of selling items, hence, if they craft items, it would not be profitable to sell them there.

If they are crafting magical items and keeping those items, eventually they will run out of wealth with which to continue doing this, so they will basically be forced to go adventuring (and selling those items will not get them full price in my game to allow the cycle to continue).

If they are crafting non-magical items and selling those items, they will not be making any significant amount of money. They will not only be bored doing this, but adventuring will also supply them with significantly more XP (some vs. none) and significantly more wealth.

So, I do not quite understand the reason for the poll. The players decide what they want to do, the DM keeps the world running in the background, and sooner or later, voluntary down time will be overruled by the players in favor of adventuring.


The DM does not allow or disallow voluntary down time per se, the players decide when they want to take it. If the DM tries to railroad the storyline into important time critical events that the PCs have to handle, then sure, he could force the issue. But, I personally prefer a more subtle approach (i.e. the players are aware that events are occurring in the background and make their own decisions about it as opposed to being forced into deadlines).

 

[FrostedMini1337]

If they are crafting non-magical items and selling those items, they will not be making any significant amount of money. They will not only be bored doing this, but adventuring will also supply them with significantly more XP (some vs. none) and significantly more wealth.

That's not true. If I spend 10K on materials, I can craft a 30K tapestry and sell it to a king or a noble. I know, I've done it. Because the DM decided to let me. But the DM would have been completely within his rights as a human being to say, "This is D&D, not a knitting circle" and either a) refused to let me do it at all or b) say no one wanted the most beautiful tapestry ever. Real Estate and Brothel/Bar Ownership are also excellent ways to generate money.

On top of that, all sorts of NPCs get rich of non-magic gear through trade, Diplomacy, and the like, so it stands to reason the PCs can as well.

 

[KarinsDad]

That's not true. If I spend 10K on materials, I can craft a 30K tapestry and sell it to a king or a noble. I know, I've done it. Because the DM decided to let me. But the DM would have been completely within his rights as a human being to say, "This is D&D, not a knitting circle" and either a) refused to let me do it at all or b) say no one wanted the most beautiful tapestry ever. Real Estate and Brothel/Bar Ownership are also excellent ways to generate money.

On top of that, all sorts of NPCs get rich of non-magic gear through trade, Diplomacy, and the like, so it stands to reason the PCs can as well.

30K? Gold Pieces? For a tapestry?

Sorry, but your DM was on crack. Even if a King wanted such an expensive piece, he would have had the best artisans in the country (or from even outside the country) craft it. The artisan (i.e. PC) does not decide to craft such a piece and convince a King, the King decides he wants such a piece and has his underlings commission it (granted, I do not know what happened in your game, but it sounds like you wanted it to happen, not the other way around).

Secondly, 30K is a lot of money for a crafted item. That's 300,000 silver pieces and presumably a DC 20 item. So, if the PC managed a 25 average roll every single week (and never missed the roll by 5 or more), it would be 500 of the 300,000 silver pieces every week and it would take 600 weeks (and 600 rolls) or 12 years to create such a tapestry.

While it's true that most anything can happen in a campaign, there are some things which shouldn't. PCs should not acquire huge amounts of money crafting non-magical items because it should take forever for them to accomplish those types of tasks.


I have no problem with PCs setting up a trade or a business. They just have to realize that the other PCs probably will not want to sit on their hands for 12 years while one of the makes a 30K tapestry (at 50 GP per week).

So yes, my original statement was true. PCs might make significant amounts of money (as compared to adventuring) with a business, but not by using the Craft Skill. The craft rules are designed to not allow that.

 

[Infiniti2000]

On top of that, all sorts of NPCs get rich of non-magic gear through trade, Diplomacy, and the like, so it stands to reason the PCs can as well.

For sake of argument, let's say that's true. But, a reasonable business model is a whole other game that is not implemented in D&D. It is certainly not handled "on the side" automatically by the player.

...but this is an issue with item creation rules.

It is most definitely not. It is an issue with the DM and the campaign. There is no rule that states there must be and will be a buyer for everything a PC makes. Why in the world would any sane DM contemplate that, much less agree to it?

 

[FrostedMini1337]

30K? Gold Pieces? For a tapestry?

*Resisits geek urge to over explain*
It involved a lot of gems, several years, max ranks in 2 craft skills, Magecraft, lots of aid another, and it was huge. Wasn't wholly our idea, mostly started as a joke.

Slightly on-topic: How do you handle Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate in relation to lowering prices/ haggling?

Edit: Nother question: Does anyone let players besides the main caster sarifice some exp towards to cost of crafting an item? The idea has been tossed around IMG before.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Slightly on-topic: How do you handle Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate in relation to lowering prices/ haggling?

I use an opposed Diplomacy check. Winner gets a 10% better deal.

Edit: Nother question: Does anyone let players besides the main caster sarifice some exp towards to cost of crafting an item? The idea has been tossed around IMG before.

I haven't added a HR to that effect, but I gave them an artifact forge that allows willing people to sacrifice XP toward magical items if they're present for the crafting, among other things.

 

[KarinsDad]

*Resisits geek urge to over explain*
It involved a lot of gems, several years, max ranks in 2 craft skills, Magecraft, lots of aid another, and it was huge. Wasn't wholly our idea, mostly started as a joke.

Still, 12 years of effort is an unreasonable amount of game time. Even characters with +30 to the craft skill would still require 7+ years of time.

Slightly on-topic: How do you handle Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate in relation to lowering prices/ haggling?

I used to have opposed skill checks at the delta times 1% plus 50% as a percentage. So, if the PCs won the check by 3, they got 53% of the worth of the item. If the NPC won the check by 7, they got 43% of the worth. Typically, this put sold items into the 40% to 60% category. I just rolled the dice, I never bothered to roleplay this level of minutia.

But, this was a pain in the butt to do, especially if the PCs had a bunch of minor items they wanted to sell (and doing percentages like 52% often required a calculator).

So for this campaign, the NPC Magic Shop owner does not haggle. He offers 40% to 60% of the price and the PCs either agree or not. He arrives at the percentage via: 40% for minor items, +5% for moderate items, +10% for major items, +5% for unusual items, +10% for rare items. He does it this way since most of his clientele tends to be higher level NPCs looking for powerful and unique items.

Edit: Nother question: Does anyone let players besides the main caster sarifice some exp towards to cost of crafting an item? The idea has been tossed around IMG before.

Yes, I allow this. My players rarely craft items (at least yet in the current campaign), so they rarely take advantage of it.

 

[KarinsDad]

I haven't added a HR to that effect, but I gave them an artifact forge that allows willing people to sacrifice XP toward magical items if they're present for the crafting, among other things.

I was contemplating this type of idea as well.

What levels are your PCs that they acquired an artifact? I was thinking of having a high level NPC "rent out" his artifact forge to the PCs.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I was contemplating this type of idea as well.

What levels are your PCs that they acquired an artifact? I was thinking of having a high level NPC "rent out" his artifact forge to the PCs.

11th level, though I do run a fairly high powered game. It is also located on Pandemonium, so they can only access it via teleport safely, but on the plus side, their enemies don't know about its existance. On the down side, every time they use it, it draws upon the winds of the plane, and it has a chance of driving them insane (low Will save DC, but use it enough...).

I'm kinda old school with artifacts.

 

[FrostedMini1337]

I used to have opposed skill checks at the delta times 1% plus 50% as a percentage. So, if the PCs won the check by 3, they got 53% of the worth of the item. If the NPC won the check by 7, they got 43% of the worth. Typically, this put sold items into the 40% to 60% category.

I like that a lot. I'm using that.