Recreating Undead - How?

[green slime]

The mindless Undead are, IMO, too wimpy in the game.

They invoke a ho-hum response. Not the "Oh-my-god, how-do-we-kill-what-is-already-dead" panic I'd like to see. At least initially.

This is for a specific campaign, so I have no qualms about increasing the CR beyond a certain level.

Increasing the DR for both skeletons and zombies is one way, I suppose. Another would be to increase the hp out the wazoo...

Doubling hp (maximised), SR 11+HD, DR 10/magic and bludgeoning, Immunity to Cold, Electricity resistance 5, and Fire resistance 5, Immunity to paralysis, sleep, unconsciousness, mind-affecting effects, death attacks, criticals, poison, disease, ability damage, sneak attacks,...

Dropping the lame toughness feat from zombies and getting something else. Instead of just limiting them to single actions, reducing their speed to 15, but allowing them to move and strike.

I want mindless undead to be feared because they should be nigh indestructible, even at mid-levels (10th-12th). the main tactic against them should be to flee or contain, until truly destructive forces can be brought to bear.

 

[Vrecknidj]

The idea that mindless undead should be this or that is purely a campaign flavor issue. The official rules don't need to be changed, of course, just those rules that you, the DM, want to change.

That said, if you want to have your mindless undead be terrifying, there are all kinds of things you can do, including the things you've listed. You could give them specific ways to be killed, and then not let anything else kill them. I ran a d20 Modern scenario once with zombies--they could not be destroyed except by decapitation. Fire, bullets, electricity, nothing the characters tried worked. Someone had a sword cane and got a natural 20. I described the strike as hitting at the neck. The zombie had already been hit lots of times by bullets and stuff, it had parts hanging out all over the place, but wouldn't stop. When the sword went through the neck, the zombie collapsed and the players cheered.

Dave

 

[reanjr]

The mindless Undead are, IMO, too wimpy in the game.

They invoke a ho-hum response. Not the "Oh-my-god, how-do-we-kill-what-is-already-dead" panic I'd like to see. At least initially.

This is for a specific campaign, so I have no qualms about increasing the CR beyond a certain level.

Increasing the DR for both skeletons and zombies is one way, I suppose. Another would be to increase the hp out the wazoo...

Doubling hp (maximised), SR 11+HD, DR 10/magic and bludgeoning, Immunity to Cold, Electricity resistance 5, and Fire resistance 5, Immunity to paralysis, sleep, unconsciousness, mind-affecting effects, death attacks, criticals, poison, disease, ability damage, sneak attacks,...

Dropping the lame toughness feat from zombies and getting something else. Instead of just limiting them to single actions, reducing their speed to 15, but allowing them to move and strike.

I want mindless undead to be feared because they should be nigh indestructible, even at mid-levels (10th-12th). the main tactic against them should be to flee or contain, until truly destructive forces can be brought to bear.

Seven words:
Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead.

 

[Li Shenron]

First thing to come to my mind is to make them more like Animated Object, because that more or less what Skeletons and Zombies are

Undead and Constructs are very much alike when it comes to features, immunities, etc. but with some differences. Compared to a medium skeleton/zombie, a medium animated object has d10 instead of d12, but has +20 bonus HP, better BAB and hardness instead of DR, which is more or less like DR 5/-, at least if you consider bone~wood.

As a slight improvement, you can start giving the two undead those +20 HP, better BAB and hardness, keeping the HD d12, and keeping the feats and extra immunities.

Later on, you can invent some feats - whose knowledge belongs only to the NPC necromancers - which give specifically created skeletons/zombies additional energy immunities, improved hardness, turn resistance or added DR X/good for example.

 

[Li Shenron]

On the other hand, if you really want them almost indestructible, give them outrageously high hardness and spell resistance. But don't ask for a CR evaluation then . And in that case, if you make them nearly impossible to beat, you should make them nearly harmless against the PC as well: at first encounter the players will try to destroy them, they will notice that after 10 turns they can't beat them and that if they keep fighting they are going to be slowly drained of hps... Also it should be easy to escape or capture them.

 

[ThorneMD]

You could just give your zombies and skeletons the frightful presence ability.

 

[Kemrain]

Simply giving them Regeneration should make them terrifying, especially if the PC's don't have access to what it takes to deal lethal damage.

I'm planning a Thief game, so I share your interest in making the Undead something that causes irrational fear. I've boosted the HP noticably, given them DR 5/ Slashing, and DR 1/- on top of that, Given them Regeneration 5 and made Fire, Acid, and Holy damage deal normal damage.

On top of that, the way you describe Zombies and Skeletons is more important than the mechanical changes. Unless you describe something truely awful to your players they'll be wary, but won't feel the fear their characters should. Do the Zombies make any sounds as they shamble toward the PC's? Do they try to breathe? How do they smell? Are they recognisable? Do they try to speak?

Letting your players think that the Mindless Undead might still have a mind in there is another chilling way to make them afraid.

- Kemrain the Necromancer.

 

[rgard]

The idea that mindless undead should be this or that is purely a campaign flavor issue. The official rules don't need to be changed, of course, just those rules that you, the DM, want to change.

That said, if you want to have your mindless undead be terrifying, there are all kinds of things you can do, including the things you've listed. You could give them specific ways to be killed, and then not let anything else kill them. I ran a d20 Modern scenario once with zombies--they could not be destroyed except by decapitation. Fire, bullets, electricity, nothing the characters tried worked. Someone had a sword cane and got a natural 20. I described the strike as hitting at the neck. The zombie had already been hit lots of times by bullets and stuff, it had parts hanging out all over the place, but wouldn't stop. When the sword went through the neck, the zombie collapsed and the players cheered.

Dave

I did something similar. My zombies weren't undead as in infused with negative energy, but were animated by a virus that infected the corpse's brain. To kill the zombie the players had to do an aimed strike (-2 to hit) at the head. Giant zombies and cave bear zombies were -6 to hit as the head was higher off the ground. I had the zombies be killed by fire as well. The hit points of the head were the same as the hit dice/hit points of the original creature.

"Kill the brain, you kill the ghoul." - Night of the Living Dead.

The zombies could not be turned by a cleric or others.

It took awhile for the players to figure out that they had to hit the zombie's head. It happened when they got a critical hit (we use a HR for criticals that hit specific body locations) crushing the zombie's skull and dropping it.

Getting bitten by the zombies necessitated at fortitude check (dc 15 plus the hit dice number of the zombie.) If failed the character would be infected, pass out and remain unconscious for one hour then change into a zombie and would attack his/her former friends.

This scenario was actually a lead in to getting the characters into the Traveller universe. A buried Traveller scout ship was the source of the virus and some dwarven miners had accidentally released the virus.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I recently threw an advanced wight at my 8th level party. At the climax of a series of encounters- not as a random encounter or anything. An extra 4 HD, and a magic breastplate, a high resistance to turning, and regeneration 10 that worked against anything but holy or chaotic damage.

(I know that, strictly speaking, undead can't have regeneration, but that's what it worked out to. If dropped it was not destroyed, and it came back quickly. I guess that by the book it was a form of fast healing that didn't work against holy or chaotic damage, plus a reform ability if destroyed.)

One searing light and a few good hits and the wight was down. And then the party recognized that the "wooden sword" lying on the floor behind the wight was a relic that functioned as a holy sword. The wight was in the doorway, but after he was dropped the paladin was able to retrieve the sword and finished off the wight quite handily. I should have doubled the wight's hit points so that tumbling, dimension dooring or luring off the wight would be needed to get to the sword. Or a really tough fight. Oh well; there's always next time-

But back on topic: I agree that some kind of fast healing or damage resistance (5/holy or 5/silver or even 5/-) and/or about 4 or 5 times the indicated hit points would be a good start towards making the "lesser undead" quite feared. Or at least very annoying and hard to kill.

 

[snarfoogle]

I want mindless undead to be feared

Ever see 28 Days Later? The gist of it was that (these are very minor spoilers, but I wanted to be safe)

Spoiler

the zombies, called the "infected" are created by a highly contagious disease carried by monkeys at first, but swiftly spreading to humans. If the blood got in your mouth or eyes, you'd quickly become infected, so what I'd suggest to do is add this aspect. You don't have to make the zombies faster or anything, but call for some weak DC reflex saves or dex checks. Just don't make it a save or die thing, it should be difficult but possible to reverse.