Recurring silly comment about Apocalypse World and similar RPGs

[Maxperson]

Unless that room has 50 occupants or more, or the combined exiting totals 50 or more, in which case the door must open in the direction of exiting travel, and if the door has a latch it must have panic hardware on the push side...

... then again BBEG rarely follow the building codes. Or, if you're the Empire, don't follow OSHA either. That's why they're the BBEG!

lol Yeah. I'm fairly certain death traps are an OSHA violation. Now let me see, which code section that is in?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Absolutely. And explaining rules to such people can be very diffiult!



I don't think it's unreasonable or weird, either. I also don't think it's unusual or weird for folks explaining something to not realize if it hasn't helped. This kind of stuff happens.

I just wish that when people are asking for answers of others, they kind of maintain a curious disposition rather than demanding precision of others to do what they could conceivably do themselves.

Oh sure. My response to people who can’t do that is simple.

 

[Faolyn]

While I understand how it might be uncomfortable, neither AW nor MH really intend for players to ERP at the table, as both Vincent and Avery said that they normally just fade to black. Honestly, speaking as an ERP connoisseur, they are pretty clunky and aren't exactly suited for actual ERP.

True enough. It still sets a tone I'm not hugely fond of. It's personal, not a problem with the game.

 

[Faolyn]

As a brief aside, WEG's Star Wars game did this in their adventures as well. They would often start with a short in media res script for the players to read/act out and to get the ball rolling quickly, and then often peppered throughout there were cut-scenes of sorts featuring the oppositional elements to set up the context, create tension, enhance the tone, and the like. Coupled with the opening crawl it fit the SW feel quite well.

I do cut scenes/teasers for my MotW game and it does do a very good job of setting things up and racking up the tension.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yes, I know all this and all of this happens, but it was also not quite what I meant. I'm not sure I can explain it properly. Situations are static in a sense that if the PCs wouldn't do nothing, nothing would happen. Like the score is just some guards guarding the casino's safe during the night. And sure thing, once the PCs arrive, things start to happen, but otherwise it would have been an uneventful night. And I know it seems weird, because of course the PCs will be there to mess up things, because the game is about that, so who cares that would have happened had the PCs done nothing! But I mean static as opposed to dynamic situation where there would be some ongoing conflict or issue in midst of which the characters arrive to complicate the matters.

Yeah I can't speak for any other BitD game except the one I played in. I don't know what ideas the GM might have had, but to us, the setting seemed pretty dynamic. The book outlines many ongoing conflicts and whatnot that are presumably going on as the game's action takes place. Some of those became relevant to us in play.

On the whole I would say that nothing about the game or setting is making it less dynamic than, say, a D&D city, Ptolus for example. I think Doskvol overall is probably a little better on this than 4e's Gloomwrought, which itself has a pretty decent amount of stuff going on.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Perhaps, but she did so in a clearly biased way. "Traditional games tend to be boring because the rules don't care about being interesting" (obvious paraphrase). How is that less insulting than anything I've said is to storygamers?

My primary take away from the exchange is

Here is a gamer who plays both trad + non-trad games - does her frustration with the trad game arise due to her broad gaming experience or is this an issue trad players experience and more importantly does this happen at my table?
If it does (and I'm not likely to change systems at 15th level), what can I do to mitigate that? What mechanics within PbtA engines can I use to better my players' experience at our table.

There was a time where I focused on the slights and off-hand comments intentional or otherwise, but I find that it was not useful. Unfortunately I don't have the time to play all these games and watch YouTube vids (hell I got games on my shelf I still haven't used), but I do make time for Enworld. When I do, I'm looking to share ideas and see what's been shared by others to improve the running of my games.

That's where I'm at right now in my rpg journey.

 

[Micah Sweet]

My primary take away from the exchange is

Here is a gamer who plays both trad + non-trad games - does her frustration with the trad game arise due to her broad gaming experience or is this an issue trad players experience and more importantly does this happen at my table?
If it does (and I'm not likely to change systems at 15th level), what can I do to mitigate that? What mechanics within PbtA engines can I use to better my players' experience at our table.

There was a time where I focused on the slights and off-hand comments intentional or otherwise, but I find that it was not useful. Unfortunately I don't have the time to play all these games and watch YouTube vids (hell I got games on my shelf I still haven't used), but I do make time for Enworld. When I do, I'm looking to share ideas and see what's been shared by others to improve the running of my games.

That's where I'm at right now in my rpg journey.

Sounds good to me. I just feel said attitude should apply to everyone who makes off-hand comments and slights, on both sides of the preference debate.

 

[Aldarc]

They're both decent games. I think Dungeon World is a more mature system. OTOH Stonetop is fun, though it is not fully finished yet, the game is out there in pre-publication form for testing, and it is certainly playable, however some bits are not really written up in final form, and I feel like the playbooks and such still have some rough bits. However, if you want to run a Hearth Fantasy type of game, Stonetop is definitely made for that. DW is a bit closer to classic D&D tropes, Stonetop doesn't have things like demi-human races and wizards, though the Seeker is kind of a wizardish figure, and the Lightbearer is kind of like a cleric, etc. I mean, they hit the same basic archetypes, but the DW playbooks are intended to give you pretty close to verbatim D&D class versions of those archetypes.

If you believe that the playbooks still have some rough bits, I hope that you are sending your feedback to Jeremy Strandberg on his Discord channel. Otherwise those "rough bits" will likely stay "rough bits."

 

[Manbearcat]

Yes, I know all this and all of this happens, but it was also not quite what I meant. I'm not sure I can explain it properly. Situations are static in a sense that if the PCs wouldn't do nothing, nothing would happen. Like the score is just some guards guarding the casino's safe during the night. And sure thing, once the PCs arrive, things start to happen, but otherwise it would have been an uneventful night. And I know it seems weird, because of course the PCs will be there to mess up things, because the game is about that, so who cares that would have happened had the PCs done nothing! But I mean static as opposed to dynamic situation where there would be some ongoing conflict or issue in midst of which the characters arrive to complicate the matters.

Yeah I can't speak for any other BitD game except the one I played in. I don't know what ideas the GM might have had, but to us, the setting seemed pretty dynamic. The book outlines many ongoing conflicts and whatnot that are presumably going on as the game's action takes place. Some of those became relevant to us in play.

On the whole I would say that nothing about the game or setting is making it less dynamic than, say, a D&D city, Ptolus for example. I think Doskvol overall is probably a little better on this than 4e's Gloomwrought, which itself has a pretty decent amount of stuff going on.

Alright, let me see if I can grab some of the relevant particulars of this particular game and I'll throw out the primordial ooze of my thoughts on where my brain should/would be at the outset of play and developing situations. This is not character stuff. If I got into Rivals and Friends and Vice Purveyors and the thematic material/premise at the core of each character, this post would take me way longer than I'm willing to devote to it right now! Anyway, this is the very outset of play...this got updated quickly (and significantly in all directions) after the first few sessions:

* Assassins that lair in a Nightmarket orphanage. Orphanage is both a front/strategic location for staging operations and a legit and sympathetic interest for the characters; they were all orphans who grew up there. In northern Nightmarket and right on the border of Charterhall and Six Towers so (a) Imperial Military will be a presence for the Gaddoc Rail Station, (b) vagrant, gang, and supernatural threats and influence from Six Towers, (c) city governance/university/Bluecoat patrols. Also near tailor, dog track, parks so scenes there.

* Outright Crew Enemies or enemy prospects at outset of play due to setup affiliations:

The Billhooks: A tough gang of thugs who prefer hatchets, meat hooks, and pole arms. Just straight savages. "Hills Have Eyes" and "Leatherface" sort of mutant serial-killer quality here. Murder-for-hire (or just sheer mayhem) puts them at-odds with the Crew...and basically anything that moves. However, relevant wards (Barrowcleft - farming/breadbasket - and Coalridge - labor, machining, distilling, mines) don't put them at turf-odds with the Crew. Going to be other situation/stuff that makes them clash...or the Crew bringing the fight to them.

The Wraiths: Thieves and assassins that would put them in competition with the PC Crew for assets, turf, clients, rep.

The Silver Nails: A company of Severosi mercenaries who fought for the Empire in the Unity War. Renowned ghost killers. Notably hostile w/ Crew ally The Circle of Flame (they compete for relics/resources with these antiquarians) and Crew friend's org; Exeter the Spirit Warden...however, Exeter seems like a double agent or giving them intel on TSW's doings and moves...so who knows what TSN's relationship with Exeter might be (if any)?

The Lampblacks: The former lamp-lighter guild, turned to crime when their services were replaced by electric lights. At war with Crew ally The Red Sashes (due to competing drug trade, clients, turf, and escalated skirmishes). Crew are going to be forced to choose a side, real quick; TRS's leadership is militant about this.

TBD Spirit Wardens ("Ghostbusters") or Church of Ecstasy (State Religion). These two are enemies and this could turn any which way due to Exeter, due to PC spirit trafficking, due to Forgotten Goddess veneration. Who knows?

* Outright Crew Allies and Friend:

Exeter (Friend): A Spirit Warden who is effectively "unmasked" to the Crew because he was an orphan with them. He gives them info on all things TSW including logistics, patrols, infrastructure, etc. Great for the Crew now, but very dangerous for Exeter and apt to become a problem any number of ways.

The Red Sashes: Originally a school of ancient Iruvian sword arts, since expanded into criminal endeavors; duels, drugs, danger. Aforementioned war with The Lampblacks is going to draw the PCs/Crew into it; pick a side.

The Circle of Flame: A refined secret society of antiquarians and scholars; cover for extortion, graft, vice, and murder. This high Tier group brings lots of angles for clients, situations, access to locales, demands, and "offers you can't refuse."

---

Again, this isn't even getting into the PCs Friends, Rivals, Vice Purveyors and the thematic material embedded in their Backgrounds/Playbooks.

So you have a gang of situation, competing interests/motivations, clash-material, interesting locales, avenues for escalation right off the bat. And by session 2 things were already exploding and off in different directions from this collision of Crew-build + native setting primordial ooze.

Duskvol and the immediate setup of the game is a "conflict & situation-rife sandbox." Its a powderkeg. And it goes boom pretty quickly.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

@Manbearcat I am not talking about the setting as much as structure of scores. In your experience is it usual that the scores themselves are some sort of developing dynamic situations in midst the characters arrive, as opposed to static ones like guards guarding the thing the PCs want to steal, and the situation only developing from static by PC intervention? Because in our game they have been mostly the latter.

This isn't even criticism of my GM, nor the game. It has been fun regardless. I was just pondering whether the structure of the the game somehow leads to these sort of setups or whether it was just the style of my GM. I kinda suspected that as the difficulties are supposed to mainly arise from complications caused by rolls gone badly, this sort of nudges the GM to set up situations where there are not many moving parts unless the PCs put them into motion.