Recurring Villains

[Quickleaf]

4e seems to work well with campaigns that hone in on a single ultimate villain when the PCs reach high epic levels. Tiamat. Lolth. Orcus. Primordials. Archfey. Archdevils. However, what about a villain not unlike the PCs, a mere mortal who grows in power during the course of the campaign? Is such a concept viable in 4e? My idea was to have the villain be a noble in a faustian bargain (or some other kind of tragic villainy) who gradually becomes a dark lord with his own domain of dread by the epic tier. However I noticed that the most iconic dark lord Strahd is only a level 20 solo, which makes him a good end to a paragon campaign but not an epic one. Do you have experience with recurring villains? Do they evolve stat-wise in the campaign?

 

[Scribble]

4e seems to work well with campaigns that hone in on a single ultimate villain when the PCs reach high epic levels. Tiamat. Lolth. Orcus. Primordials. Archfey. Archdevils. However, what about a villain not unlike the PCs, a mere mortal who grows in power during the course of the campaign? Is such a concept viable in 4e? My idea was to have the villain be a noble in a faustian bargain (or some other kind of tragic villainy) who gradually becomes a dark lord with his own domain of dread by the epic tier. However I noticed that the most iconic dark lord Strahd is only a level 20 solo, which makes him a good end to a paragon campaign but not an epic one. Do you have experience with recurring villains? Do they evolve stat-wise in the campaign?

I didn't get far enough into my last campaign (moved across the country partway through it) to really get into the re-occurring villains, but this is something I do almost always.

One of the main villains of the last 3e campaign I ran started out as an ally to the characters (a lowly stable boy that the ranger in the group rescued and began to train as an apprentice...) During one fight he was turned to stone, and the characters had to abandon him (the ranger swore he would return when he could.)

Meanwhile the main villain found him, and restored him, and tricked him into believing his allies had simply abandoned him... He then took on the mantle of an anti-paladin and grew in power encountering the players a number of times... They grew to hate him and tried their best to kill him each time.

Only close to the end of the campaign did they finally find out who he really was.

It actually worked out pretty well- for the last part of the campaign the player wanted to redeem him... He actually got really sad when he finally decided he couldn't do it, and would have to kill him- He wouldn't let anyone else do it. (It was a classic Anakin Obi-Wan rip off moment. )

 

[the Jester]

Yeah, I've used evolving recurring villains... but you have to be careful not to take away player choice by "forcing" the bad guy's survival when the pcs should be able to take him down.

I usually find the best recurring villains are the ones that arise from in-game events rather than from my own planning.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Recurring villains are not a 4e problem. They are a problem in any game that encourages the players to kill ever monster or encounter they meet with extreme prejudice.

When using someone you want to be a villain long term, the trick is to have them NOT be on the front lines trying to kill the players directly unless they have a clear means of escape and it is not a means of escape that the players are going to hate.

Jumping off a cliff, into a raging sea, being covered by an avalance, being caught in an explosion, etc... All of the old classics where there is no body found.

Legacy style villains might be more appropriate for some campaigns. For example, a group of villains or a family of villains or some type of organization that is in the campaign as a potent force.

 

[Quickleaf]

Great points about how to keep the BBEG alive without it feeling forced. I'm still puzzling out ways to do this IMC, though that's not unique to 4e I'd welcome any advice along those lines. Actually my intended question was more about the viability of an epic level solo human "mortal" BBEG in 4e? I mean at 30th+ level he'd be rivaling demon princes in power, and as a dark lord would leave Strahd in the dust!

 

[Mengu]

It's certainly possible. My arch villains are all humans (or humanoids). Level doesn't matter. They are statted out as solos. Yet, they are rarely caught alone (and if they are they are probably running). So far there are 2 major ones the PC's have encountered. One was just in the area and eluded them a few times, and showed himself briefly in a battle. The other one they actually fought, but he got away when hiss allies had fallen.

I liken these guys to Sith, they have a Sith-like organization (though there are more than 2). They are treacherous, power hungry and their power grows much like the PC's. The PC's hear about their deeds, try to thwart their plans, etc.

I expect the PC's will face off one of these again at paragon, and have a shot at killing them. But these bad guys know when they are losing, and will not fight to the death, and often have escape plans. It's entirely possible the epic confrontation of the campaign will involve one of these two villains they met at early heroic levels.

When people ask me what my favorite monster is, my answer is always the human.

 

[Quickleaf]

It's certainly possible. My arch villains are all humans (or humanoids). Level doesn't matter. They are statted out as solos.

I realize that, to some extent, the difficulty of a monster is determined by the DM's needs. However, epic solos seem to be awe-inspiring creatures of vast power: archdevils, archfey, demon princes, primordials, gods, ancient dragons, that sort of thing. How do you justify, narrative-wise, a human acting as a solo monster?

When people ask me what my favorite monster is, my answer is always the human.

I agree 100%.

 

[Mengu]

I realize that, to some extent, the difficulty of a monster is determined by the DM's needs. However, epic solos seem to be awe-inspiring creatures of vast power: archdevils, archfey, demon princes, primordials, gods, ancient dragons, that sort of thing. How do you justify, narrative-wise, a human acting as a solo monster?

It's really not that much harder to justify than the powers PC's gain. At first level, a void soul genasi can stop existing on this plane for a bit and an Eladrin travels through the fey realm. At fifth level an assassin can create a clone of himself. At ninth level a wizard can summon a succubus and bend her will to do his bidding. At fifteenth level a warden spits lava from his flesh.

Imagine a 35'th level villain trained in dark magics, teleporting at-will, creating multiple clones of himself, shrouding himself with necrotic energies that hinder his enemies, summoning elemental guardians, bending the will of his enemies to do his bidding, and simply stepping into another realm for a quick getaway.

A human(oid) can be every bit as awe-inspiring as the demon prince of the undead, a two headed beast god, or a five headed dragon god.

If it's the mechanical part that bothers you, it's just numbers on a paper. Don't over think how a human could have 1500 hit points. It's really no different than a cyclops warrior with 1 hit point. Numbers on a paper.

 

[Riastlin]

I realize that, to some extent, the difficulty of a monster is determined by the DM's needs. However, epic solos seem to be awe-inspiring creatures of vast power: archdevils, archfey, demon princes, primordials, gods, ancient dragons, that sort of thing. How do you justify, narrative-wise, a human acting as a solo monster?


I agree 100%.

Just take a look at someone like Raistlin Majere. He grows powerful enough to take on the gods, certainly sounds like you could easily make him an epic level solo (depending upon where in his storyline you decide to go).

The cool thing about the epic level solo human is that it will almost certainly catch your party by surprise. Everyone knows dragons, orcus, demons, etc. are dangerous, but a human looks just like another random standard monster.

 

[Barastrondo]

I realize that, to some extent, the difficulty of a monster is determined by the DM's needs. However, epic solos seem to be awe-inspiring creatures of vast power: archdevils, archfey, demon princes, primordials, gods, ancient dragons, that sort of thing. How do you justify, narrative-wise, a human acting as a solo monster?

His party killed an epic threat and took its stuff. Then he killed the rest of his party and took their stuff.