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[Empirate]

I think where we differ is that I didn't try and make a 20 level progression à la SS. I was just showing what a regular Tsochar advanced by standard monster progression à la Monster Manual would look like. The +1 NA/HD and SR 10+HD values are your interpretation, but they don't follow from the monster advancement rules here.

I believe scaling the Tsochar up to 20th level will be hard to do, as the base creature is just CR, and pure HD/size advancement doesn't do that much for it, as I have shown. I'd rather make a Tsochar monster class based on the regular, small sized version, then go with class levels from there - that way, we might get quite an effective and balanced character. This, however, depends on the LA we assign the regular Tsochar.

Concerning that, you're right, the ability score increases are very, very good. However, even massive, humongous, gigantic ability score values don't entirely make up for class levels and HP.

Consider your ability score array based on point buy, which gives you Con 20. With four Aberration hit dice, you're looking at an average of 41 HP. That's not much for a 7th level frontliner, and it's definitely too low for a 10th level anything. DR 5/adamantine helps, but not enough to make this any higher than 7th level in my book.

Your AC is 22. Again, this is OK for 7th level, but you shouldn't put it at 10th IMO. As I said before, armor really doesn't fit with the whole concept (what with wearing flesh and all), so you're hoping for the party Wizard sparing you a Mage Armor each morning.

Your attacks deal a meagre 1d4+3, so anything you can't grapple (meaning anything size large and above) will just laugh in your face, even if you hit with all four attacks. Your attack bonus is OK at +11, but a 7th level Fighter will likely do better. Note that that's at only 7th level, don't even start comparing the two at 10th.

All in all, I stick with my estimate of LA +3, ECL 7. But of course, YMMV.

 

[Pergentile]

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[Drowbane]

I generally use CR +1 or +2, as long as that number is equal to or greater than the HD.

Thus I'd call your crazy little aberration somewhere around ECL 5-6 (I can hear the "what what what?!"s already).

I also firmly believe that WotC over charges LA by a lot, and in almost all cases (except where they underprice... by a lot ).

In the case of a Tsochar, the only real ability that matters is the wear flesh. A tsochar that is stuck in combat without a host has already failed at life.

Edit: note that this formula grants Mindflayers as ECL 9. Compare that to the ECL 15 WotC would have you pay. They compare that base model Mindflayer to optimized level 9 humans. And then to optimized level 15 humans.

edit II: Your Miles May Vary

 

[Empirate]

LA is always difficult to fine-tune. I might be persuaded to concede the Tsochar's LA to be +4 instead of +3, that really depends on some playtesting, and on how much you can get out of the Wear Flesh ability.

I also want to say I very much like Frank and K's Tome ideas of adapting monsters to be playable. They get rid of the concept of LA, and instead go by CR. For monsters with few special abilities, the process is more or less the following IIRC:

1. Take the monster's CR, add 1. That's the PC's effective character level.

2. Take the monster's ability scores, and subtract not 10 or 11, but subtract the elite array of ability scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), and round down to even numbers, to arrive at the monster PC's racial ability bonuses/penalties.

3. To get the monster's HP and attack and save bonuses, do the following: confirm what the monster's primary role in a party is. As the Tsochar likely qualifies as primary melee, it gets +1 BAB/level, and a good Fort save. It also gets as many HP as a Fighter of its level.

For the Tsochar, we'd end up with the following ability modifiers:
Str +4, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +2, Wis +0, Cha +2
This is good, but not overpowering.
The Tsochar's BAB would be +5, its base saves would be +4, +1, +1, and it would have 5d10+5*Con bonus HP.

Note that while this may seem powerful, the lowered ability bonuses (as compared to WotC's LA system) balance it out again. Also note that this monster class is balanced against a totally different take on the Fighter - one who gets actual class features, and great ones at that.


Just throwing this out there for discussion.

 

[Pergentile]

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[Empirate]

SS provides rather crude guidelines instead of rules...

Also, I was just referring to Frank & K's take on things, not my own. Their idea of D&D is heavily retooled and rebalanced (much, much more than Pathfinder etc.), so ECL 5 means something different in their game. I just like their take as a general idea because it's quick and simple, and makes sure monstrous PCs have HP, saves, and attack bonus in line with their level.

Wear Flesh: this makes your character heavily dependent on what the DM sends your way, and on the circumstances s/he puts you in. Also, the tougher the thing you'd like to 'wear', the harder it will be to actually do so. That makes the ability much harder to rate than an auto-successful Polymorph spell. Take Spells is the same, only more so. Being so hard to rate, I'd like to keep it out of the equation to a certain degree.
As an aside: if the Wear Flesh ability makes your physical stats irrelevant, then those great stat modifiers are not that important anymore...

 

[Pergentile]

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[Thyrdegn]

Having played a Tsochar character in the past, LA is less important as your levels increase. I started playing the character at 12th level, 4 racial HD & 8 wizard levels, no LA. I continued playing the character well into the epic levels. It was a slightly better combatant than a straight mage, but not comparable to a fighter by any means. Zeke was focused on acquiring all the magical knowledge (spells) he could. By the end of the campaign he was one of the most powerful wizards in the game world.

The race is primarily interested in the acquisition of magical knowledge, not combat. Keeping that in mind, most Tsochars are going to advance as Wizards. They are not going to advance as Sorcerers, they lack the magical knowledge the Tsochar seek. A decent argument could be made for taking some Rogue levels to aid in the acquisition of certain arcane materials. If it were to be played as a fighter, and progressing solely as a fighter, it would not have that great an edge over a human fighter mostly due to the increased damage weapons deal over the Tsochar's tentacles. Unless you are playing an all Tsochar campaign, there is little enticement to advancing racial HD. It would quickly limit your ability to wear medium sized creatures. It is easier to infiltrate Human society if you look Human. Look into the heart of the beast and try to see the world as it would see it. These creatures are mostly Wizards, with a smattering of other classes thrown in.

Each person needs to look at how it will fit into their game and decide for themselves how much LA it should suffer, or better yet, just roleplay and have fun. Leave the number crunching to the accountants.