Redemption v. Vengence: A Paladin's Question

[Felix]

"Release your anger; strike me down and your journey towards the dark side will be complete."
-Palpatine

"Master Yoda, how do I know the good side from the bad?"
"When you are calm; at peace."

As much as the SW franchise deserves to be scoffed at for their last two productions, they really knew their stuff in the originals. And these do apply to your paladin. Paladins dont stay paladins by acting out of hatred and anger. They act out of love; they protect the good and innocent by crusading against the forces of evil. But they don't crusade because they hate evil.

If you've not read Sepulchrave's story hour (and I think I've seen you post on that thread) probably the most appropriate scene is when Zhuel (an archon) is being subsumed to fuel an epic spell cast by Graz'zt. Sepulchrave describes Zhuel, who has been combating Graz'zt and his minions since the Fall, as having a deep sense of pity for Graz'zt, and completely deviod of anger or hate. That for me is pure [Good].

If that's something that a paladin can't achieve for some reasons, ok; but I do think they should be aware that this is the perfection of their goal to be pure good, and what they are aspiring to achieve in life.

 

[Kemrain]

"Release your anger; strike me down and your journey towards the dark side will be complete."
-Palpatine

"Master Yoda, how do I know the good side from the bad?"
"When you are calm; at peace."

I gots to agree with Felix on this one: Paladins = Jedi Knights.

The only time I've played a Good character has been in a Star Wars game. A Good, Spiritual man who ended up becoming a warrior. That is what a Paladin is, in it's core, and that is what the Jedi portray as well.

Revenge isn't Good. At best it's Neutral, at worst it's plain Evil. There's a reason St. Cuthbert is LN: retribution isn't goodly. A truely good character should be conserned for all, even the villan. Redemption serves a greater good than execution, and should be strived for.

In my opinion, which this entire post is, your Paladin should try to redeem her father. She diesn't have to LIKE it, or even him, but he should be given a chance. Then again, it shouldn't matter that it's her father, as anyone deserves the same chance.

Is redemption possible in your campaign? If so, go for it. It's the Good thing to do.

- Kemrain the [Evil]

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Here's the question: what is the metaphysical reality of your world? If the gods have a pseudo-Christian idea of good then the best thing to do is probably to attempt redemption and to stand ready to deliver vengeance if that fails. Trust but verify.

If your world hews closer to a Platonic of Aristotelean idea of good, forgiveness and mercy aren't necessarily virtues; the good thing to do would be to strike him down and endure whatever punishment the gods mete out for killing your own father. Impiety is impiety and it must be punished. For more on this view, see Orestes fate after he slew his mother in vengeance for her murder of his father, Agammemnon upon his return from the Trojan War. He was pursued by the Furies for a while IIRC.

 

[Chorn]

Um, I hate to break it to you, but at least in the original trilogy, Vader was a GOOD guy. Let's examine the evidence:
<snip>

Whoa! Vader was a LG paladin. He was just using manifesting his Smite Evil through his force choke.

All kidding aside. I'd agree with Torm. Redeem him if you can, but be prepared to go smiting if it's not possible. Spending a few years trying to redeem the supreme evil while he plunders and pillages is not in the best interest of the innocents when you can smite him down.

 

[babomb]

I gots to agree with Felix on this one: Paladins = Jedi Knights.

The only time I've played a Good character has been in a Star Wars game. A Good, Spiritual man who ended up becoming a warrior. That is what a Paladin is, in it's core, and that is what the Jedi portray as well.

Revenge isn't Good.

Funny you should say that.

The third (or sixth) Star Wars movie was originally titled Revenge of the Jedi. There were, apparently, already T-shirts, etc. printed with that title when George Lucas decided to change it to Return of the Jedi. When asked why, Lucas said, "Revenge isn't a Jedi concept."

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

This is a one-God kind of world... Think WarCraft-- The Light is The God and there are lots of lesser saints that the people look.

My particular saint of choice is The Apecto-- a battle-hefty long-dead Cleric-- a warrior bent on the idea that Clerics ought to be the Hand of the Light and do good, generous things and smite evil when it deserves it. So, a pretty *christian* feeling to it. However, I do kill kill kill quite frequently.

This is kind of where my major issues come into play. I do not think that my character will loose her paladin or cleric abilities for killing her father-- he is Evil with a BIG BIG BIG E-- murders babies, eats the innocent, and drinks the blood of virgins Evil...

But, there's the family issue. She's always wanted a family...

(For more backstory, check out the story hour-- first post is a story just about Justice... link in sig.)

 

[Queen_Dopplepopolis]

Whoa! Vader was a LG paladin. He was just using manifesting his Smite Evil through his force choke.

All kidding aside. I'd agree with Torm. Redeem him if you can, but be prepared to go smiting if it's not possible. Spending a few years trying to redeem the supreme evil while he plunders and pillages is not in the best interest of the innocents when you can smite him down.

I will probably, when it comes down to it, give him the choice: "Will you redeem yourself... Yes or No?"

Hopefully, by the time that I have this little encounter, I will have invested the experience and time into the Quintessential Paladin's "Detect Lies" ability through Detect Evil... (spending experience and time to train allows the Paladin to detect the evil inherent in a lie)... and, when he says "Yes" but thinks "No"-- we can have an epic battle that ends with his corpse on the ground...

mmm, sweet justice.

 

[aurance]

EDIT: double

 

[aurance]

Jedi =/= Paladins. There are things that jedi can do, according to their code, that paladins should not do, and vice versa.

Jedi can lie, cheat, and deceive in the name of justice or greater good. Qui-Gon does all of this in TPM. They can also preserve the status quo - hence the resigned indifference toward slavery in TPM. Jedi have a wide lattitude in what they do to seek justice, so long as it doesn't involve emotional context.

Paladins have no restrictions about emotions. They can love or hate and still be paladins. What matters really are the results of their actions, not emotional context. Paladins can be bitter old angry men on the inside, but so long as they follow the paladin's code all is well.

Vengeance is probably very bad for jedi, because of the emotional involvement, but has no consequences whatsoever for paladins as long as good is served in the end.