AD&D 1E Redesigned and Rebalanced Thief for 1e AD&D

[Celebrim]

One way the Thief gets hosed is in the saving throw tables: for Thieves, Poison should be broken out from Paralyzation and Death into its own category, with Thieves - and Assassins - getting the best odds of saving of any class (rationalized as being better trained with poisons and-or having built up a bit of immunity through repeated exposure).

I feel like this is a preference rather than a real need. At low levels of RAW, thieves already have good saving throws across the board. The very slow improvement of their saves is the problem, a problem that I solve by giving them even better saves across the board to start with. I wouldn't object to thieves or assassins getting a +2 bonus on saving throws versus poisons, which wouldn't require breaking the categories out or any other such big change. I just don't see it as a real necessity that they are particularly resistant to poison.

And, does any of the above tweaking also apply to Assassins?

Honestly, Assassins for me aren't interesting enough to be their own class. They basically are thieves with level caps in exchange for better weapon selection. There only really unique ability worth mentioning is their death attack, but that has to be one of the least interesting and least well thought out mechanics in D&D as it seems to want to turn an adventure into an off screen affair. The assassin narrates to the GM how he plans to kill some NPC, and rather than playing out the plan the GM dices for it adjusting the percentages in the table as he sees fit based on how good the plan is relative to the defenses the GM has chosen for the NPC. That's all RAW. And well, frankly I find that silly. Just play out the assassination attempt. That's more fun and less prone to subjective silliness.

That said, if I were working up revisions to Assassins, pretty much everything I wrote above would apply to them, and I'd port in the small tweaks that Assassins have, including Disguise as an additional thief ability, 1 more weapon proficiency, no weapon restrictions, one less NWP, and the level cap/leveling restrictions. I'd probably throw in that all assassins starting from level 1 get the Master Thief ability to deal backstab damage to any surprised foe and add to that that it applies to ranged attacks within 1" per level of the assassin, give them a +2 bonus on saves versus poisons, lose the special assassination table and be done.

I find higher-level Thieves - say, about 9th+ - are quite able to hold their own, if nothing else by that point they've almost certainly got some rockin' magic gear to help them out, and their thief-skill percentages are high enough to be at least somewhat reliable. It's the 4th-and-lower level range where they really have issues.

Everyone gets better magic gear to help them out, but every other class gets better benefit to almost all of it than a thief does. And while the skill percentages start to become reliable, the number of situations that they critically help out in is smaller than the number of situations that a M-U or Cleric with the same XP could help out in by uses of spells - even if they focused solely on things like Spider Climb, Levitation, Tensor's Floating Disk, Fly, Silence 15' Radius, Invisibility, Detect Traps, Detect Magic, Polymorph Self, Comprehend Languages, Knock, Passwall, Dimension Door, Telekinesis, Teleport, Tongues, Remove Curse, Dispel Magic, Wall of Stone, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Augury, etc. The M-U just is a better thief than a thief is.

The thief at 4th level and below is actually pretty decent class and you can show this mathematically. The THAC0 gap at this level is pretty small so you have a decent chance of hitting targets in the AC 5-8 range that is common at low level. You start out with better saves than a fighter and your AC isn't terrible. Your damage output isn't bad because that high Dex lets you dual wield with no real penalty, and you can always throw daggers or darts from tier two until you can get around behind the target for a backstab. You hit 4th level before the Barbarian hits 2nd and by that point you've got as many hit points as the barbarian started with. Specialization breaks this somewhat, turning even low level fighters into combat monsters that no longer need 18/50+ strength to outclass other characters, but you still are at least useful.

But as you level up, even though you stay a couple of levels ahead, you just do not keep up with the other classes. Spellcasters advance exponentially, getting more spells and more powerful spells at every level. Meanwhile, not only do you advance linearly, but you advance linearly at half the rate of the other linear classes. You gain about half as much hit points as a fighter. Your saves for the most part improve half as fast as a fighter. Your THAC0 improves half as fast as a fighter. By the time you hit 10th level all your saves that were better than a fighter are now worse. Your THAC0 that was two behind the fighter is now like 7 behind. Not only are you hitting for less damage, but you are hitting like half as often. A 5th level dual specialized fighter or a 5th level cavalier will handedly kill a 15th level thief in a straight up fight even if assume the thief has +3 weapons and armor and the fighter doesn't. When you start comparing like to like, say a 10th level fighter versus a 12th level thief the gap in capabilities is just enormous - the thief is worse at everything and the thief abilities are low enough utility to be almost color. No other class has that problem. A 15th level just about anything but a thief would be threatened by a 5th level fighter, but not overwhelmed by it because it would have answers of its own. The thief's only answer is something like, "Can I have the ring of invisibility, since the fighter and the M-U really don't need it?"

 

[Celebrim]

Interesting ideas! I really like the exceptional actions listed for the skills.

I also gave the thief class a boost in my campaign but not as extreme. The key ideas are:
1. A thief is never penalized for attempting their skills and failing the roll, unless the skill description specifies one (PP, Climb). For example, failing MS does not mean you are automatically noticed, failing RT does not mean you set off the trap.
2. Some skills are passive in common situations, e.g. the DM can roll Detect Traps for you if the party walks towards a pit trap.
3. A wider list of skills to choose from, and the possibility to replace the standard skills with others.
4. All thieves get Evasion (the one useful ability of the Acrobat IMO)
5. If the thief is single-classed, bonus skill points at some levels.
6. If single-classed, gain an "advanced study" at 6th level, such as Arcanist which gives you the ability to read low-level scrolls or Swashbuckler which gives you +2 to hit in melee. The ability improves/expands at 11th level.

We have a lot of the same ideas, although you missed that in addition to fixing the thief I'm also blanket answering questions like "Ok, so what happens if the non-thief wants to climb walls or move silently?" Also the full design (and understanding it) may require a full NWP (for thieves) write up, since I'm leaning into that as a means of addressing skill use. Even 2e was overly conservative in its write up of NWPs just as 3e designers were overly conservative when addressing skills, because both designers didn't want to add something that was game breaking. There were some feat like experiments in 2e though, and I think hindsight shows that is really where the design should have gone.

Addressing your changes:
1) We're doing basically the same thing here only I'm leaning into the failure/failure with consequences model of Pick Pocket and applying it universally. You generally don't get consequences unless you fail by worse than 21%.
2) Passive skill usage sounds like a good thing and can be justified but tends to put a burden on the GM to remember to do all that, and I hate shifting burdens to the DM.
3) I'd be interested in seeing your skill list, even though I'd probably turn most of them into NWPs, they probably have some good ideas.
4) As you can see, all thieves get Evasion as well (assuming they invest in it) as well as pretty much all the Acrobat abilities without having to switch to a new class. Under these rules, you can run a thief that is acrobat-like just by focusing your skill improvement on those areas, or one more traditional by focusing on the traditional thief skills. Or you can jack-of-all trades if you are willing to be about 70-80% in all areas by the time you hit 10th level.
5) Bonus skill points for being human and/or high INT, not just because this 3e innovation made a lot of sense, but because the original thief write up listed intelligence as the secondary attribute of a thief but didn't mechanically back that up.
6) This will come from the more 'feat like' NWPs I plan to right up, albeit I might not post those for several weeks. In any event, neither of the ones you listed are necessary though, since all thieves in this write up are effectively getting both advantages.

 

[fuindordm]

Since you ask, here's the complete data. But I don't want to derail the thread from your excellent work.

@Celebrim regarding the skill list, I've attached it. But this list is a little special: I was never a huge fan of 2E's NWP system and so I made up my own skill system that adheres more closely to my interpretation of the AD&D framework: skills with a low chance of success generally give a bonus and can be tried without consequences, while skills with a high chance of success (pick pockets, climb walls, disguise) are more likely to have a consequence for failure. Most the skills are derived from mundane abilities possessed by other classes, but I made up a few as well.

Even before this I've been ruling for a long time that thieves can interact with magical locks, wards and traps at half their normal chance. After all, the best loot is always in the wizard's tower, right?

Here are my complete house rules for thieves:

Thief​

Ruling Thieves can wear fairly bulky armor other than leather, but while doing so they suffer large penalties to most of their skills, and cannot backstab. (Note: Assassins can backstab, and assassinate, while wearing armor because sometimes disguise is more important than silence.)

Evasion skill​

House Rule All thieves, including multiclass, gain the thief-acrobat’s evasion skill (see UA). Evasion can only be used if the thief is unencumbered.
Evasion can be used only on rounds where the thief’s side wins initiative, and each use costs 1 segment of time. It allows the thief to react to any attack, including spell attacks requiring a to-hit roll, melee attacks, and missile attacks. A successful roll means that the thief jumps or tumbles a few feet out of range, completely negating the attack. Evasion cannot be used in a confined space that does not permit this freedom of movement.
While a thief is in melee, they can only use this ability to evade melee attacks. However, successful evasion may take the thief a few feet out of melee range and allow them to react to missiles and spells later in the round. Evasion does not provoke a back attack for retreating from melee.
The thief can only evade large area attacks like dragon breath, lightning bolt, fireball, or cloudkill if they are already close to the edge. Normal saving throws are allowed if evasion fails. Evasion has no effect on area effects and traps that the thief triggers themselves, such as a glyph of warding.

Thief level	Evasion chance		Thief level	Evasion chance		Thief level	Evasion chance
1	1%		7	15%		13	45%
2	2%		8	20%		14	50%
3	3%		9	25%		15	55%
4	5%		10	30%		16	60%
5	8%		11	35%		17	60%
6	10%		12	40%		18	60%

The probability to evade is modified by dexterity (as listed in the dexterity bonuses table) and by race as follows: elf, dwarf, or gnome +5%; halfling +10%. For example, a first-level halfling thief with Dex 17 has an evasion probability of 17%. However, evasion probability can never go above 60%.

Clarifications to thief skills​

Ruling Thieves study the rudiments of magic from first level, as a matter of survival! This training gives them a small chance of detecting and bypassing even magical locks and traps, and eventually reading scrolls, but a thief never achieves the mental training required to memorize and cast spells.

Find/Remove Traps	Magical traps and wards can also be detected, at half the usual probability. This skill can also be used to design and set up mechanical traps, given suitable equipment, as well as simple snares and trip-lines to trigger alarms.
Hide in Shadows	This skill can be used in any situation where the PC has cover or concealment, not just darkness. Failing the roll does not mean you are detected. Success means you are definitely undetected and increases your surprise chance by 1 in 6.
Move Silently	This skill is used in any situation where you want to escape detection while moving, even if literal silence is not possible. For example, you can blend into a crowd on a busy street. Success increases your surprise chance by 1 in 6.
Open Locks	This skill also works on puzzle locks and combination locks. A container or door with multiple locks may impose a penalty, but only one roll will be required. A thief can bypass a magical lock such as hold portal at half the usual probability.
Pick Pockets	This skill is also used for tricks of manual dexterity, as well as misdirection and sleight of hand. Examples include juggling, concealing a small object that you just picked up, making a coin you hold appear to vanish, cheating at cards, etc.
Climb Walls	Only one roll is required; failure indicates the thief falls from half the height.
Read Languages	This skill is also used to detect, solve, and create secret codes and cyphers. A thief can use it to determine what spells are on a scroll in the absence of read magic.

Single-classed thieves—advanced study​

House Rule Single-class thieves can specialize in a single skill at first level, gaining +15% to the probability of success. In addition, they can take a bonus adventuring skill.
Single-class thieves also choose an area of advanced study, and gain additional benefits at 6th and 10th level as per the following table (choose one column):

Specialization	Requisite	At 6th level	At 10th level
Acrobat	Str 12	Gain the movement modes and falling protection of the UA Thief-Acrobat	Has all abilities of the UA thief-acrobat and can use evasion against all traps
Arcanist	Int 12	Precocious study: Can attempt to use scrolls with 1st or 2nd level magic-user spells.	Delude item: Can attempt to activate miscellaneous magic and wands usable by MUs.
Fool	Cha 12, Wis < 10	Push your luck: twice a day, reroll a skill, ability check, saving throw, or attack roll when you are in a foolhardy or untenable position. You must take the new result.	Devil’s own luck: Can use push your luck 3 times per day. Once per device, you can reroll a random magical effect that you have triggered, such as drinking from a magical pool or drawing from the deck of many things. Once per week, you can auto-succeed. This allows the DM to declare one auto-fail in the future, including penalties for a drastic failure if any apply. The ability does not recharge until the DM causes you to fail a roll.
Freelancer	none	Gain +10% to an existing skill, or learn an additional skill	Gain +10% to an existing skill, or learn an additional skill. Skills raised above 100% may permit the thief to accomplish seemingly impossible tasks at half the probability, such as hiding in plain sight or climbing a wall of glass.
Swashbuckler	Str 12	+2 to hit with a melee weapon of choice; can use an off-hand weapon as a buckler for -1 to AC.	+2 to damage with weapon of choice and attack rate 3/2. Superior parry as a fighter.

 

[Willie the Duck]

d) The thief skills here are vastly more useful at high level. They effect more situations and have higher top end effects.

This part is key. Obviously making them more survivable and better at fighting (maybe on-par with the cleric or the like) is a reasonable quality of life improvement, and much appreciated. However, making what they do actually useful, relevant, and ever advisable at each stage of play is the more important aspect. Oftentimes when people try to 'solve' the OSR thief, they just mess with percentages rather than address the actual engagement-with-environment rules.

This seems to be a rather tame and restrained attempt in this direction. They still have some real issues finding and removing traps in the levels where the game is supposedly* all about dungeon-delving. Likewise, at name level they have some relatively minor boosts on top of the keep and retinue game. I could see someone else introducing new mechanics like spy networks, rumor-based reconnaissance, battle of wits, or even some more mythic abilities we tend to reserve for ninjas and the like. Certainly nothing here would make make the thief the go-to class or far-and-away favorite for someone not wanting to play one based on theme/role.
*cue infinite debate about how the game was actually played.

Personally, I would like (would include for my own re-do of AD&D thief) more for the post-name level game. But then I'd want to do so for all non-casters and that seems like a more ambitious project.

 

[fuindordm]

This seems to be a rather tame and restrained attempt in this direction. They still have some real issues finding and removing ...I could see someone else introducing new mechanics like spy networks, rumor-based reconnaissance, battle of wits, or even some more mythic abilities we tend to reserve for ninjas and the like.

I agree with both your (abridged) points.

I love the idea of a mythic thief whose role and archetype allow feats of stealth and trickery that seem supernatural, without spellcasting (see for example the defunct comic Thieves & Kings or any number of mythological trickster-heros.)

And my revision is certainly restrained. Why did I hesitate to go farther? Probably due to lack of experience with high-level play. Campaigns over 10th level are mostly theoretical.

Regardless, the thief in AD&D is an attractive class because it provides a very different, and sometimes satisfying, experience for the player compared to the other three groups.